Mic audio birdies/spurs 100D/7000/P1 vs. P2 firmware

wx7y
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Mic audio birdies/spurs 100D/7000/P1 vs. P2 firmware

Postby wx7y » Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:30 am

Ed. note: I moved these posts from their original topics where they were kind of hidden away since they were not precisely on topic. Initially it was just this one report of a new 7000MKIII acting up, but now there is a similar report of a 100D (starting with the October posts). With this additional report is seemed worth making a new, dedicated topic with the idea that perhaps others have seen this behavior as well and that the additional visibility might help. More on this in my first October dated post below. 73--Scott.


Okay, well I finally got the MIC and everything set up in the shack for the New 7000DLE MK2 with REV3 board and Version C of the new firmware causes my Radio to have a Carrier on the TX looking at my spectrum analyzer screen with the radio on a dummy load on LSB I have just reset the database to fresh start, set the 7000DLE to on 40 meters so if I'm tuned to 7.272.000 MHz to Carrier is on 7.270.000 MHz on Upper sideband it is at 7.274.000 MHz and only using the MOX to key the radio. I have Reset the Database and with no cables plugged in except for the Ethernet, Power, Antenna to a Dummy Load and NO difference. No Mike plugged in at all Just the Ethernet cable and coax With MOX enabled 
I reinstalled the original protocol 1Firmware, it made ALOT of difference and the carrier was just barley there and could not be heard on the air.

I then reloaded Beta Version C of REV2 and the Carrier was back, I tried Version D and it has the issue to, I will have to use Version 1 but better then nothing.

Protocol 2, there are also Digital Audio artifact sounding echo's on the MIC audio that other stations can hear along with the Carrier.

Attached the pictures, Protocol 1, The power on the radio transmitter is higher output to see the carrier Spike out of the RF signal floor, Protocol 2 Power output is turned way down.
Anyone else see this?

Bret
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Attachments
Protocal 2 Firmware D small.jpg
Protocal 2 Firmware D small.jpg (43.61 KiB) Viewed 8107 times
Protocal 2 Firmware C Small.jpg
Protocal 2 Firmware C Small.jpg (43.53 KiB) Viewed 8107 times
Protocal 1 Firmware Small.jpg
Protocal 1 Firmware Small.jpg (39.19 KiB) Viewed 8107 times
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Re: 7000MKIII Protocol 2 Firmware

Postby kc2rgw » Sun Aug 21, 2022 1:03 pm

With SDRs, RF getting into the audio often sounds like reverb, it doesn't typically have the same sound as a conventional rig with RF on the audio.
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Re: 7000MKIII Protocol 2 Firmware

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Aug 21, 2022 1:43 pm

wx7y wrote:I reinstalled the original protocol 1Firmware, it made ALOT of difference and the carrier was just barley there and could not be heard on the air...there are also Digital Audio artifact sounding echo's on the MIC audio that other stations can hear along with the Carrier.
That spur (it's not a carrier) should not be there with P1 or P2. And as KC2RGW already pointed out, any echo (or reverb) on your signal is dramatic evidence of RFI. The reason it appears as an echo is because there is in our radios, depending on settings, there is generally between a 100ms to 200ms delay from mic input to RF output. So any RF getting back into the mic input creates an echo.

Concentrating on only P1 for now, does this happen on all frequencies and bands? If you can eliminate the RFI that is (probably) causing that spur then all will probably be well. In other words, P2 is most likely not the cause, but merely making the problem more apparent.
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Re: New 7000MKIII Protocol 2 Firmware Topic

Postby wx7y » Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:43 pm

NO, Revision 1 work great No spur, no Digital reverb just great sounding audio, the Audio is NOT being over driven, I use the same Database for Revision 1 as Revision 2 and have tested it with a HARD RESET other than audio levels set correctly.
Like I said before the Pictures from the first message show it all, the Bottom Picture is Revision 1 and no MIC plugged in Using MOX to key the radio in ANY of the pictures.

The Audio, reverb is NOT RFI it is there even when the Output Power is at 1W and only happens with Revision 2 Firmware which and has NOTHING to do with RFI.
The Spur is NOT being suppressed on Revision 2 like it is on Revision 1 (Look at the Pictures) and is strong enough carrier to be heard 20 Miles away which is way to strong for FCC Regulations and permissibility , If no one else is seeing this or hearing this then I would be surprised, But maybe I'm the only one that has the issue or that has the RF Test equipment to see the issue's who has a ANAN 7K DLE REV 3 radio.

Don't want to be a fly in the ointment here but I thought this was BETA firmware and not a final version for testing and debugging but maybe I am wrong on how the BETA stuff works here.

Anyway I'm stuck on Revision 1 or return the Radio and go another direction.

A little of my history, I have exclusively been using SDR radios since 2008 when the FLEX5000's with PowerSDR since the F5K came out and my Main base station is the FLEX6700 here now and have the FLEX3000 on a Mountain Top remote still in service so PowerSDR is NOT new to me by any sense and I know how to properly set the Audio up for each stage of the Audio chain,

73's
Bret
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Re: New 7000MKIII Protocol 2 Firmware Topic

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:34 pm

Have you tried versions A or B?

What is this spur that appears in your Protocol 1 screen shot? It's in all your screen shots, but not as evident in the P1 configuration.

Protocal 1 Firmware Small.jpg
Protocal 1 Firmware Small.jpg (33.89 KiB) Viewed 8038 times
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Re: New 7000MKIII Protocol 2 Firmware Topic

Postby wx7y » Sun Aug 21, 2022 6:05 pm

In that picture that is Revision 1 and is there all the time, and is WHAT I am talking about, or with the MIC plugged into the radio or not and from 1 to 100% Drive levels.
To see it in the TX spectrum on the Radio scroll up 10 or 20 DB on rev 1 and I can just see it out of the grass.
On REV 2 looking at the other two pictures that I sent using REV2 ver C and REV2 ver D you see it is SO much stronger.

A station a mile away can barely see that signal using REV 1 running 30 Watts out and is at least -110DB down and is perfectly acceptable and legal but with REV 2 it is +30 to +50 DB higher, which you can see in the Picture, and I can see it with the same process as above using the ANAN TX spectrum.
He hears it about 10 over S9 when I key using MOX with no MIC plugged in running the same Power level using SSB with no MIC he should NOT hear anything at all.


Thanks
Bret
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Re: New 7000MKIII Protocol 2 Firmware Topic

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Aug 21, 2022 6:17 pm

Yes, I understood all that Brett. I just wanted us to agree that the spur was also present with P1, albeit at a much lower amplitude.

With either P1 or P2, which ever is convenient, would you mind testing what switching mic boost on and off does to this spur? And also what switching to different mic sources such as line in and VAC does to this spur?

Also, if you get a chance to try rev's A or B please do let us know.
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Re: New 7000MKIII Protocol 2 Firmware Topic

Postby wx7y » Sun Aug 21, 2022 7:13 pm

Sure, no problem whatsoever, here you go
These Pictures taken using the Thetis TX Display and are named for what they are displaying in case they get confused in the upload.

1st Picture "MIC Boost" ON, REV1, MIC unplugged, still there just harder to see because it's in the Noise
2nd Picture "MIC Boost" OFF REV1, MIC unplugged, there are actually 2 birdies that show with the lower MIC gain but still there.
REV 1 Is acceptable on the over the air testing.


3rd Picture "MIC Boost" ON, REV2, MIC unplugged, Pops right up out of the TX Noise floor
4th Picture "MIC Boost" OFF REV2, MIC unplugged, Pops right up out of the TX Noise floor
REV 2 Is not acceptable on the over the air testing.

The MIC level is set at "0" in these test
Attachments
REV2  MIC boost on (1).png
REV2 MIC boost on (1).png (139.16 KiB) Viewed 8016 times
REV2  MIC boost off (2).png
REV2 MIC boost off (2).png (135.92 KiB) Viewed 8016 times
REV1  MIC boost off (2).png
REV1 MIC boost off (2).png (163.24 KiB) Viewed 8016 times
REV1  MIC boost on (1).png
REV1 MIC boost on (1).png (146.74 KiB) Viewed 8016 times
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Re: New 7000MKIII Protocol 2 Firmware Topic

Postby wx7y » Sun Aug 21, 2022 7:33 pm

did another test with REV 2 C,
I turned off the 20DB Boost and turned up the MIC gain to approx. 17DB so the Mic levels are -10DB down on the ALC meter (same as with MIC Boost) BUT ALL of the TX grass is substantially higher, and the birdies are buried down in the INCREASED TX Grass, here is the Picture of it in this configuration.

Woops, the Display range changed turning up the MIC gain so there IS lower Birdies with the MIC boost off and MIC gain set to +17DB
sorry

Bret
Attachments
REV2  MIC boost off MIC gain up to 17DB #2.png
REV2 MIC boost off MIC gain up to 17DB #2.png (139.81 KiB) Viewed 8006 times
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Re: New 7000MKIII Protocol 2 Firmware Topic

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:31 pm

So the spur is strongly associated with mic boost. That implies that the CODEC IC on the Orion board is picking up some sort of noise on the mic input, and that the noise is worse with P2 firmware installed. In terms of potential noise producers in P2, there is the gigabit Ethernet rate increase that might be a factor.

Did you happen to try line in or VAC in order to confirm that the noise is uniquely associated with the CODEC mic input?

I'm assuming you are using a dynamic mic of some kind? Not that that matters where this problem is concerned, I'm just curious?

Were you going to try P2 Rev's A and B?
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Re: New 7000MKIII Protocol 2 Firmware Topic

Postby wx7y » Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:07 pm

VAC using DIGU is very quiet as near as I can tell on REV 1, and TX Noise floor is way down at -120DB with no audio present
Yes Dynamic MIC is being used, I have tried PR-40, GM-5, Yaesu MH31 with the proper MIC wiring so far. Wish I had an external MIC Pre-amp and see if that make a difference but I dought it because the test has been done with no MIC.

Line in, I have switched to it in the transmit tab and ran the test on REV1 and the spikes and ambient TX noise is far less, I will take some pictures once I try it REV2 for you to compare to each other.

I have a lot of errors with Ver A and Ver B so can't really run them here but I'll try again now I know more what is going on.

Thanks for letting me know about the Audio path stuff that is important.

Oh a question for you does the Line imput have enough to use a MIC or will it need a MIC preamp on it ?

Bret
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Re: New 7000MKIII Protocol 2 Firmware Topic

Postby wx7y » Sun Aug 21, 2022 11:20 pm

Here are the Pictures,
Look like REV2 C using the Line input maxed out (doesn't make a difference) the Birdy is only about 2 DB stronger, and the TX noise floor is 1 DB Lower BUT REV1 clearly shows the 2nd Birdy closer to Zero Beat much stronger.

VAC on both Revisions is very as the attached picture shows no sign of the Birdies so definitely in the Audio chain somewhere

If you think the Line input can be driven with a MIC I will build a cable to interface to it.

Rev 2 ver A gives me sequence errors 8 (DDC2) errors, The signals look the about the same as Ver C, I have pictures if you want them

Rev 2 ver B radio will not connect to Thetis, just click the relays and throws the sequence error 8 (ddc2) error
Attachments
REV2 A Line Input source selected with Gain set for max at 12.0.png
REV2 A Line Input source selected with Gain set for max at 12.0.png (155.24 KiB) Viewed 7976 times
REV2  A MIC boost on .png
REV2 A MIC boost on .png (152.69 KiB) Viewed 7976 times
REV2  A MIC boost off .png
REV2 A MIC boost off .png (149.83 KiB) Viewed 7976 times
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Re: New 7000MKIII Protocol 2 Firmware Topic

Postby w-u-2-o » Mon Aug 22, 2022 12:25 am

This is unfortunately interesting. The presence of interference on the CODEC mic input in both P1 and P2, and becoming worse with P2.

Does anyone else see this? I cannot duplicate it on my 8000 running P2 here. Is it something unique to new 7000's that use the Orion MKIII?

Obviously rev's A and B are non-starters for you, and rev. C works quite well (other than the interference), which tracks well with everyone else's experience.

Line in cannot be driven by a mic alone, a mic preamp would be required to bring the signal up to line level.

Using a condenser or electret mic would help as you could disable mic boost.

The "a" answer would be to use VAC audio, although I realize this might not be something you are interested in.
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Re: New 7000MKIII Protocol 2 Firmware Topic

Postby wx7y » Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:31 am

That figures, I guess if no one else is seeing the issue with the REV 3 hardware I think I'll call HRO tomorrow and return it (Preferred) or exchange it for something else, at this point I am NOT a believer in the hype for the ANAN Radios so time to just move on, I'm sure NOT going to wait another 6 months for another one.
I spent so many hours working on this project and gave it a good college try.

Thanks for all your hard work on this and this is the way my luck goes.

73's
Bret
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Re: New 7000MKIII Protocol 2 Firmware Topic

Postby kc2rgw » Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:18 am

When you disconnected the mic, you unplugged the cable from the radio or just the mic from the cable?
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Re: New 7000MKIII Protocol 2 Firmware Topic

Postby wx7y » Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:24 pm

it is unplugged from the 1/8" jack on the front of the radio I just have the Power Connector and Ethernet is all that is plugged into the radio.

Thanks
Bret
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Re: New 7000MKIII Protocol 2 Firmware Topic

Postby wx7y » Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:54 pm

HRO won't take the radio back and swap m, go figure so I guess after waiting since February I will have taken care of this on warrantee, BUT they probably will only fix it if it's running the original firmware revision 1, BUT with the Revision1 firmware the Radio is to FCC specs. knowing my luck.

I guess all I can do is run Revision 1 and not use be able to use Revision 2.

Anyone know the US warrantee repair phone number or Email address?

Maybe the Revision 2 firmware won't matter to them, and they will fix the problem.

Thanks for everyone's comments and help on this issue.

Bret
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Re: VK-JOE's 100D questions

Postby VK-JOE » Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:35 am

Audio chain "birdie"??

Want to share an interesting observation with MIC input “static” levels on the 100D

100D audio chain birdie.jpg
100D audio chain birdie.jpg (421.07 KiB) Viewed 6984 times


To me it looks like a “birdie” – its approx. 2450Hz offset from the VFO frequency (on either sideband – whichever is selected – here it’s on LSB)

I can totally remove this “birdie” using the Equalizer (TX) and simply “tuning out” at 2450Hz

Obviously, this creates a “hole” in this passband – not desirable.

Varying the audio chain “gain” will not suppress this “birdie” on its own – it will move the entire passband – including the “birdie”.

Under operating conditions – this “birdie” has little noticeable effect – unless there is “dead audio” - then the 2450Hz can be heard – albeit very very quiet.

I have “pulled” the microphone from the MIC socket – so this “birdie” appears to be generated inside the radio.

Has anyone seen similar effects in their radios?

Is this “birdie” caused by some stray harmonics entering the audio chain?

I did not look in detail at the schematics – thought to share this observation first – just in case its something common and a known artifact.

Hope the above information / observation serves some greater need :oops:

Perhaps its present in other radios – but simply not noticed :?:

Have Fun ;)
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Mic audio birdies/spurs 100D/7000/P1 vs. P2 firmware

Postby w-u-2-o » Tue Oct 25, 2022 2:41 pm

That's very interesting. It looks like nearly identical behavior to the problem that Bret reports above.

I wonder if the behavior tracks with his observations:

- Mic boost makes it worse.
- Protocol 2 firmware makes it worse.
- It's less bad on the line input.
- It doesn't happen at all with VAC input.
- It doesn't seem sensitive to RF power/drive.
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Re: Mic audio birdies/spurs 100D/7000/P1 vs. P2 firmware

Postby G3ZQH » Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:33 pm

Scott alerted me to this thread. I have been experiencing similar 'audio birdies' almost exactly as described here with my 200D mic input. For me this happened several years ago and I swapped to PC audio, which I used successfully until I hit a reverb problem recently (in another thread).

Here is a screen shot of my mic audio spectrum- you can clearly see the peaks present giving the birdy type interreference. These audio tones are heard on TX and cause a real degradation of signal quality.

200D mic rig TX audio.jpg
200D mic rig TX audio.jpg (398.23 KiB) Viewed 6883 times


73 Dave G3ZQH

200D, Thetis 2.9.0.6, Protocol 2 v 1.9, W10 PC, electret headset
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Re: Mic audio birdies/spurs 100D/7000/P1 vs. P2 firmware

Postby VK-JOE » Wed Oct 26, 2022 1:33 am

w-u-2-o wrote:That's very interesting. It looks like nearly identical behavior to the problem that Bret reports above.
I wonder if the behavior tracks with his observations:
Yes, It would appear to exhibit identical behaviour.

- Mic boost makes it worse?

To some extent - it "elevates" the "floor" - the "birdie" not beyond what was shown on its own.

- Protocol 2 firmware makes it worse?

Cannot say - as did not check with P1 firmware (can do if it will help - please advise)

- It's less bad on the line input?

Have not checked the line input.

- It doesn't happen at all with VAC input?

Can confirm 100% that this behaviour is not present when using VAC Input!

- It doesn't seem sensitive to RF power/drive?

Can confirm - RF power drive does not effect the "birdie"


I would suspect that this "birdie" problem is most likely inherent in the fundamental design which is common to the 100D, 200D and the 7000 - possibly a PCB layout problem allowing spurious coupling into the audio chain?

For me personally it does not make much difference (I can live with it) since I will be using VAC input(s).

However, it would be good to identify the exact cause - so that this can be eliminated from possibly existing and any future production runs.

If the "birdie" signal is somehow being generated in the FPGA due to its "reconfiguration of logic gates / modules" (protocol changes) - then it might be appropriate to possibly re-examine the topology of the FPGA traces on the circuit board - to somehow minimize or filter-out this undesired signal from reaching (presumably) the high gain capable audio chain which inadvertently “boosts” this signal enough to be noticeable as the “birdie” we observed.
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Re: Mic audio birdies/spurs 100D/7000/P1 vs. P2 firmware

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed Oct 26, 2022 2:37 am

I don't see this on my 100D or 8000. They are both very quiet. And there are not a lot of reports on this issue, although perhaps we'll see a few more now that this topic is started. But it hardly seems epidemic.

My gut feel is that this is noise from one of the internal switchers or some sort of clock noise affecting the CODEC chip itself, and nothing to do with software, firmware or the FPGA. Perhaps something along the lines of this topic: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2922 (Jim did a fabulous job of fixing his ANAN if you read through the entire topic).

I just took a screen shot of what's coming out of my 8000. Nothing plugged into the microphone port, mic boost off, mic gain maximum. Transmit passband is 50 to 3500Hz (quite wide). Protocol 2 is in use.

Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (37.53 KiB) Viewed 6870 times


It looks essentially the same mic boost on or off, mic or line selected, on all bands. When I turn on MON and turn up the volume I just hear normal noise akin to white noise, there are no obvious tones. It is quite an odd shape, though, not at all flat, and I have to wonder what is causing that.
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Re: Mic audio birdies/spurs 100D/7000/P1 vs. P2 firmware

Postby G3ZQH » Wed Oct 26, 2022 1:20 pm

Just another observation to add. The same birdies are not there when I unplug my mic- although some different peaks appear at a lower level (see screenshots below). My mic is electret, so is it possible that these audio birdies are linked to the bias voltage? Has anyone seen these peaks with a standard mic?
73 Dave G3ZQH

200D mic OUT audio TX.jpg
200D mic OUT audio TX.jpg (375.69 KiB) Viewed 6824 times

200D mic IN audio TX.jpg
200D mic IN audio TX.jpg (397.49 KiB) Viewed 6824 times
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Re: Mic audio birdies/spurs 100D/7000/P1 vs. P2 firmware

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed Oct 26, 2022 2:58 pm

G3ZQH wrote:Just another observation to add. The same birdies are not there when I unplug my mic- although some different peaks appear at a lower level (see screenshots below).

Dave--both Bret and Joe are reporting these spurs without their mic's being disconnected. That you are only seeing them with your mic plugged in implies that the mic element and/or cable are picking up this energy and bringing it into the ANAN, rather than it being generated inside the ANAN somehow. In other words, your problem is likely a different problem compared to what Bret and Joe have reported.

One thing you might try is to turn off mic bias. If that eliminates the spurs you are seeing then they might be coming out of the CODEC bias supply, or they might be coming from the mic element itself. The only way to know for certain is to try an entirely different make/model microphone. If you turn off the bias and you are still seeing them, then it is likely being picked up by the cable or body of the mic and getting in that way. At that point you could try coiling up and/or otherwise moving the cable and seeing if those spurs change in character.

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