Click from Microphone

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n2gq
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Click from Microphone

Postby n2gq » Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:30 am

I have a click coming from my mic element when I ptt. Has anyone come across this? My boom and mic just happened to be near my ear when I heard this. Radio is 7000dle mk3.
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rdwing
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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby rdwing » Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:54 am

If you're using the analog mic input, the ground is shared with the mic input.
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:17 pm

This sounds like it might be a mic and PTT wiring problem. This happens all the time with new users because they don't pay full attention to the proper wiring of the mic TRS connector.

What microphone, and exactly how is it wired?

How are you activating PTT, and exactly how is that wired?

In setup, is the mic signal assigned to tip or ring?
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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby n2gq » Sat Mar 11, 2023 2:26 pm

I am using a Heil gm4 dynamic mic.
The mic signal is connected to the tip and selected in menu. Bias off and ptt is on I use a foot switch. When I activate ptt with mox icon I don't get the click in the element. I have bridged 1 and 3 at both ends of mic cable to remove the hum.

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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby n2gq » Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:17 pm

I flipped the mic signal to ring and it seems like the click is less but a bit noticeable.

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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:29 pm

n2gq wrote:I am using a Heil gm4 dynamic mic.
The mic signal is connected to the tip and selected in menu. Bias off and ptt is on I use a foot switch.

Good info!

How is the footswitch connected to the ANAN?

When I activate ptt with mox icon I don't get the click in the element.

Exactly. Because when you use MOX it does not electrically mess with anything on the mic connector.

I have bridged 1 and 3 at both ends of mic cable to remove the hum.

Now we are getting somewhere. Unfortunately that's still not enough information to know where things went wrong with the cable wiring.

The GM4 has a 4 pin XLR output. I cannot find any information on how that is wired. Can you tell me?

I'm assuming that the GM4 is a balanced output. Therefore MIC+ should be connected to the tip of the TRS and MIC- should be connected to the shield of the TRS. The shield of the mic cable should be attached to the shield of the TRS. Finally, it's vitally important that nothing else other than a PTT switch be connected to the ring of the TRS.

I'm guessing that either MIC+ or MIC- is somehow connected to the ring of the TRS.

If you are using a stock Heil adapter it is not wired correctly for the ANAN mic input. If you are using a stock XLR to TRS adapter it is also not wired correctly for the ANAN mic input. A custom cable or adapter is nearly always required.

In the FWIW department: IMHO the ANAN mic input should never have included capability for a PTT connection, it has proven to be nothing but trouble for a lot of people. Nevertheless that's what we are stuck with and things have to be wired up correctly in order for it to work right.
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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby n2gq » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:06 pm

Yes the cable is custom and the gm4 is 4 pin xlr with pin 4 being ptt 1,2,3 being standard. I read here and heil in bridging pin 1 and 3. I am using ptt at rear of radio via foot switch. Originally when I noticed the click in the element mic+ was on tip and ptt on ring. I flipped the two but still same results

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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:32 pm

n2gq wrote:Yes the cable is custom and the gm4 is 4 pin xlr with pin 4 being ptt 1,2,3 being standard. I read here and heil in bridging pin 1 and 3. I am using ptt at rear of radio via foot switch. Originally when I noticed the click in the element mic+ was on tip and ptt on ring. I flipped the two but still same results

Jay n2gq

OK.

Remember that the PTT connection on the rear is the exact same PCB trace as the PTT on the TRS ring. They are electrically connected.

In order to solve the problem we need a schematic of the cable from mic to TRS and that schematic should probably be confirmed using both visual inspection and an Ohm meter. Something is almost certainly wrong with the cable. The fact that you were able to flip tip and ring in the settings and still get mic audio both times pretty much proves that. There should be absolutely no mic audio connected to the ring, only PTT or nothing.

Connections should be:

Mic pin 1 (GND) to TRS shield
Mic pin 2 (MIC+) to TRS tip
Mic pin 3 (MIC-) to TRS shield (and optionally bond pins 1 and 3 at the mic end XLR connector, also)
Mic pin 4 no connect or optionally to TRS ring

No other connections should exist.
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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby n2gq » Sat Mar 11, 2023 6:40 pm

When I switched mic+ from tip to ring I also switched it in the Thetis, or it would not pass mic audio. And it is wire as you stated.
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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Mar 11, 2023 8:19 pm

If it's truly wired as discussed, then the only thing I have left to offer is that if you've got the mic PTT button wired up, then unwire it from the TRS connector and see if that fixes the problem.
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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby SM3PZG » Sat Mar 11, 2023 10:24 pm

When I wired a Heil BM-10 with XLR connector I asked Heil about the XLR pins. The response from Heil was:
PIN1: MIC GND
PIN2: MIC
PIN3: PTT
PIN4: PTT GND

73/Sam
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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:03 am

If the pin out is in question it might be worth a call to Heil.
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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby n2gq » Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:41 am

SM3PZG wrote:When I wired a Heil BM-10 with XLR connector I asked Heil about the XLR pins. The response from Heil was:
PIN1: MIC GND
PIN2: MIC
PIN3: PTT
PIN4: PTT GND

73/Sam


Hi Sam,
I requested the pinout from Heil for the gm4 mic.
Meanwhile in the morning I am going to try a cheap radio shack mic I have it's just a 2 wire.

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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby n2gq » Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:44 am

w-u-2-o wrote:If it's truly wired as discussed, then the only thing I have left to offer is that if you've got the mic PTT button wired up, then unwire it from the TRS connector and see if that fixes the problem.



Yes good idea will try that in the morning since i don't use the ptt on the mic.
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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:00 pm

It would not be hard to get out an Ohm meter and check the pinout on the microphone. You could also do some mild disassembly of the mic to further confirm the actual wiring.
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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby n2gq » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:07 am

No matter what dynamic mic I used on the radio I still get the click in the element. So was thinking a dc blocking capacitor could help not sure what value would work.

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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby w-u-2-o » Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:59 am

You haven't posted whether or not you checked any of your wiring as previously discussed. It could also be RFI. Nevertheless, a 1uF cap should be adequate to ensure a low freq. cutoff well below 50Hz. Polypropylene cap's are generally considered the "audiophile" choice, but any cap should work.
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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby n2gq » Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:56 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:You haven't posted whether or not you checked any of your wiring as previously discussed. It could also be RFI. Nevertheless, a 1uF cap should be adequate to ensure a low freq. cutoff well below 50Hz. Polypropylene cap's are generally considered the "audiophile" choice, but any cap should work.


Good morning,
No I have checked the wiring of the complete mic. This was my flex 6300 mic. I also checked with a cheap two wire dynamic mic with same results. I also check with another 3 pin xlr mic and the results were same a click in the element. I also checked the bias selection and made sure it was turning off. It drains slowly from the 3+ volts. I use a footswitch plugged into ptt rca jack in the rear of radio.
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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby w9ac » Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:05 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:In the FWIW department: IMHO the ANAN mic input should never have included capability for a PTT connection, it has proven to be nothing but trouble for a lot of people. Nevertheless that's what we are stuck with and things have to be wired up correctly in order for it to work right.

One issue is that Orion's mic audio return current is shared on the 3.5mm jack with the PTT return current. Most modern transceivers that use a standard 8-pin Foster connector direct the two return current paths on their own conductors. It's less of an issue today with only a few mills of PTT current. However, older transceivers use a relay to control PTT. The surge and discharge of the relay coil's magnetic field is the leading cause of mic pops when the mic PTT line is keyed and unkeyed. For us ANAN users, it's best to key the PTT line on the rear panel, separate from the front panel mic/PTT connector. Better still, take advantage of the performance offered with a pro sound interface device with ASIO audio drivers and bypass the front panel mic jack altogether.

Complicating matters, the convenient implementation of passing the Orion board's jacks through the front panel holes results in the so-called "Pin 1 problem." Jim, K9YC has written extensively about this issue in the amateur literature as well as pro audio. Rane is a subscriber to the Pin 1 fix in their audio products. See links below:

http://audiosystemsgroup.com/Pin_1_Revisited.pdf
http://audiosystemsgroup.com/Pin_1_Revisited_Part_2.pdf
https://www.ranecommercial.com/legacy/note165.html

Although the Pin 1 problem was first addressed in balanced audio systems, it applies equally to unbalanced audio configurations. As the articles state, "no wires" circuit boards greatly increase manufacturing efficiencies but at the expense of grounding/bonding performance which subjects audio input circuits to hum, buzz, and RF ingress.

Paul, W9AC
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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby n2gq » Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:16 pm

Okay Scott
I traced the wiring I have on the heil mic the only probelm I found was ptt and ground were backwards.

1 sheild
2mic +
3 ptt
4 ground
The above wiring is what I found and this was stated by Sam as well.
I also found a 1uf electrolytic capacitor in the body of the heil mic, on the mic + lead.
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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby w-u-2-o » Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:11 pm

And I'm assuming it still clicks, right?

All I can suggest is see what it does into a dummy load just to check the RFI box. But I don't expect this to be it.

AFAIK this is the only reported case of this issue. I wonder what an oscilloscope would show on the mic line?
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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby n2gq » Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:29 pm

Yes the testing has been with a dummy load. I picked up the capacitors they had no polypropolene so I purchased a tatanlum.
I sold my service monitor. Maybe when I bump into someone here on the forum and they have connected the radio using the mic input I would ask them to listen to their mic. I would have never known if it weren't for the mic being so close to my ear. But now I will install cap in line see if it removes the click.
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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby n2gq » Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:47 pm

:lol:

Finally results, I have to use the ptt at the front mic connection which eliminates the click from the mic element.

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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby w-u-2-o » Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:42 pm

That makes no sense, and I'd really like to understand why that works.

Sexy connector!

Is the RCA to Y in the footswitch?
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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby K4IBC » Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:13 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:Sexy connector!


Thought so too. Did a search for it and came up with a Calrad 30-256 that is not listed on their website.
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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby n2gq » Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:58 pm

[quote="w-u-2-o"]That makes no sense, and I'd really like to understand why that works.

Sexy connector!

Is the RCA to Y in the footswitch?[/quote

Yes the rca is for the ptt foot switch. The right angle plug 1/8 is made by calrad, the other gentleman is correct and I got the plug from krp electronics in Farmingdale.
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Re: Click from Microphone

Postby n2gq » Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:26 am

Here is another nice plug. I got the links somewhere in this forum.
https://www.redco.com/Switchcraft-35HDRANN.html
Jay N2GQ

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