Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

WT4DX
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon May 22, 2023 2:06 pm

Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby WT4DX » Thu May 25, 2023 9:25 pm

I’m currently on the pre-order list for the ANAN-G2, and thus my station conditions will definitely change. I see my current audio interface changing as well, and with that I do have questions.

The current rigs are the ICOM 746PRO, 7610, and 9700. Microphone in use is the RE27N/D, and audio is switched between the three rigs via the W2IHY IPlus. The 746PRO will be replaced with the G2.

Current audio equipment is the W2IHY 8 Band and the EQ Plus, but I intend on using the audio settings in Thetis for the G2 audio. The jury isn’t out yet in whether or not I keep the W2IHY equipment or opt for another setup. Any suggestions to that point are welcomed.

First question. How do you guys have your microphones interfaced with your ANANs in a multi-radio scenario?


73,
Tem
WT4DX
User avatar
w-u-2-o
Posts: 5539
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:47 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby w-u-2-o » Thu May 25, 2023 10:37 pm

I don't really have a dog in this fight because, while I have two radios, both are ANAN's and both are sent audio via a PC sound interface and VAC.

I would argue that you have far more, and far better, control over transmit audio using the built-in features of Thetis than you do with the W2IHY boxes. And the software is free! In Thetis you've got gain-->smart, look-ahead VOX-->rotator-->downward expander-->primary EQ-->leveler (first stage of compression)-->CFC multiband compressor-->post EQ-->smart, look ahead ALC (third stage of compressor/limiter). And the EQ's and CFC are 10-band, semi-parametric. You can't touch that level of sophistication without a rack-load of professional audio equipment.

The other thing to consider is that the G2 is supposed to be coming with a legit, fully balanced, XLR style (might be mini-XLR, not sure of connector sex or type yet) microphone input and preamp. I'd get an inexpensive, professional, mic switch like this one and use it to bypass the W2IHY stuff. I.e. mic into that switcher, one output of the switcher goes to the W2IHY stuff for your other radios, and the second output of the switcher goes straight to the G2. That way you can leave all your settings on the W2IHY stuff permanently set for the Icoms, and go direct into the G2 and use 100% Thetis processing there.
WT4DX
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon May 22, 2023 2:06 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby WT4DX » Fri May 26, 2023 12:42 am

I can actually bypass the W2IHY EQ equipment by turning off all of the EQ functions while still allowing transmit audio to pass. The G2 can be connected into the W2IHY Iplus for audio switching between the three radios. That may be the interim solution.

What are you using for a PC sound interface, and is the audio switching automatic between your two radios?

Additionally, how does the latency between the PC sound interface compare to a traditional microphone I/O setup?

One more question. What are guys using for an ANAN/ ANAN single amplifier SO2R solution?

Thank you for the reply.


73,
Tem
WT4DX
User avatar
w-u-2-o
Posts: 5539
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:47 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri May 26, 2023 1:41 am

WT4DX wrote:I can actually bypass the W2IHY EQ equipment by turning off all of the EQ functions while still allowing transmit audio to pass. The G2 can be connected into the W2IHY Iplus for audio switching between the three radios. That may be the interim solution.

The downside is that mic SNR will be degraded by the path through the W2IHY stuff. Also, there will be an unbalanced connection from the W2IHY stuff to the G2, another sacrifice that is unnecessary and potentially undesirable.

What are you using for a PC sound interface, and is the audio switching automatic between your two radios?

I'm using a Presonus Studio 192 Mobile. I only run one radio at a time. Both instances of Thetis are set up to use VAC audio and VAC is setup to use the mic audio from the Presonus. It's quite possible to run two instances of Thetis simultaneously and both will easily receive audio from the Presonus also simultaneously.

Additionally, how does the latency between the PC sound interface compare to a traditional microphone I/O setup?

With an ASIO driver capable interface (like the Presonus and many others, e.g. Behringer, Focusrite, Steinberg, M-audio--the list goes on), with proper adjustment of VAC parameters latency is lower using the VAC interface than with the audio CODEC built into the ANAN hardware.

And because these interfaces generally provide professional grade, balanced mic inputs and preamps, audio SNR is superior, and EMI/RFI resistance is also superior.

This is similarly true for receive audio. Rather than source it out of the ANAN hardware, it can be sourced via the PC sound interface, thereby obtaining better latency in the receive direction as well.

One more question. What are guys using for an ANAN/ ANAN single amplifier SO2R solution?

I'm not up on SO2R op's. Everything that has been written on SO2R on this forum can be found using the search feature:

https://community.apache-labs.com/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=so2r
User avatar
Tony EI7BMB
Posts: 651
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:31 pm
Location: Dublin
Contact:

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby Tony EI7BMB » Fri May 26, 2023 7:39 am

I see you asked about multi rigs but just using one here. I am using a MOTU M4 here to send mic audio via VAC . I also use it as the primary sound card for my PC .The M4 has a little more control than the m2 over monitor levels and has two mic inputs .
w3ub
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:32 pm
Location: Lunenburg, NS/Florida

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby w3ub » Fri May 26, 2023 7:00 pm

Tony,
So you use the M4 in RX mode to drive some powered speakers? It has this capability?
Doug
User avatar
w-u-2-o
Posts: 5539
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:47 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri May 26, 2023 8:04 pm

w3ub wrote:Tony,
So you use the M4 in RX mode to drive some powered speakers? It has this capability?
Doug

Not Tony, but they ALL have that capability.

That's what I do here. JBL LSR305 powered studio monitors.
User avatar
Tony EI7BMB
Posts: 651
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:31 pm
Location: Dublin
Contact:

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby Tony EI7BMB » Sat May 27, 2023 9:00 am

Yep to echo what Scott said I use presonus monitors using phono out.

w3ub wrote:Tony,
So you use the M4 in RX mode to drive some powered speakers? It has this capability?
Doug
w3ub
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:32 pm
Location: Lunenburg, NS/Florida

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby w3ub » Sat May 27, 2023 11:28 am

Got it, for some reason (I never used one) I thought they were an ADC only.
Doug
WT4DX
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon May 22, 2023 2:06 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby WT4DX » Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:25 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:
WT4DX wrote:I can actually bypass the W2IHY EQ equipment by turning off all of the EQ functions while still allowing transmit audio to pass. The G2 can be connected into the W2IHY Iplus for audio switching between the three radios. That may be the interim solution.

The downside is that mic SNR will be degraded by the path through the W2IHY stuff. Also, there will be an unbalanced connection from the W2IHY stuff to the G2, another sacrifice that is unnecessary and potentially undesirable.

I didn't consider the loss, but you're 100 percent correct.

What are you using for a PC sound interface, and is the audio switching automatic between your two radios?

I'm using a Presonus Studio 192 Mobile. I only run one radio at a time. Both instances of Thetis are set up to use VAC audio and VAC is setup to use the mic audio from the Presonus. It's quite possible to run two instances of Thetis simultaneously and both will easily receive audio from the Presonus also simultaneously.

Additionally, how does the latency between the PC sound interface compare to a traditional microphone I/O setup?

With an ASIO driver capable interface (like the Presonus and many others, e.g. Behringer, Focusrite, Steinberg, M-audio--the list goes on), with proper adjustment of VAC parameters latency is lower using the VAC interface than with the audio CODEC built into the ANAN hardware.

And because these interfaces generally provide professional grade, balanced mic inputs and preamps, audio SNR is superior, and EMI/RFI resistance is also superior.

This is similarly true for receive audio. Rather than source it out of the ANAN hardware, it can be sourced via the PC sound interface, thereby obtaining better latency in the receive direction as well.

If I understand you correctly, there will be lower latency interfacing the TX/ RX audio via a PC interface such as a Presonus as opposed to a direct mic connection to the XLR on the G2?

One more question. What are guys using for an ANAN/ ANAN single amplifier SO2R solution?

I'm not up on SO2R op's. Everything that has been written on SO2R on this forum can be found using the search feature:

https://community.apache-labs.com/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=so2r
User avatar
w-u-2-o
Posts: 5539
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:47 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby w-u-2-o » Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:33 pm

WT4DX wrote: If I understand you correctly, there will be lower latency interfacing the TX/ RX audio via a PC interface such as a Presonus as opposed to a direct mic connection to the XLR on the G2?

Yes, that's correct. But you have to do your part, which is to supply an ASIO capable interface, and to tune the VAC settings for maximum performance.
WT4DX
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon May 22, 2023 2:06 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby WT4DX » Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:36 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:
WT4DX wrote: If I understand you correctly, there will be lower latency interfacing the TX/ RX audio via a PC interface such as a Presonus as opposed to a direct mic connection to the XLR on the G2?

Yes, that's correct. But you have to do your part, which is to supply an ASIO capable interface, and to tune the VAC settings for maximum performance.


I'm all about that......

Taking the W2IHY equipment out of the equation, would a splitter such as this be a solution for interfacing the G2 and two ICOM radios to a single microphone? https://www.whirlwindusa.com/products/b ... l-splitter

Provided that this splitter will work, I'm making an assumption here below.

For the G2 the path would be microphone >splitter >direct output >ASIO interface >PC >G2?

For the two ICOM radios the microphone > splitter >isolated outputs >ACC Ports on the rigs?


73,
Tem
WT4DX
User avatar
w-u-2-o
Posts: 5539
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:47 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:08 pm

WT4DX wrote:Taking the W2IHY equipment out of the equation, would a splitter such as this be a solution for interfacing the G2 and two ICOM radios to a single microphone? https://www.whirlwindusa.com/products/b ... l-splitter

You can't use the line level version. You have to use the mic level version:

https://www.whirlwindusa.com/products/s ... -splitters

However, if it were me I'd still go with a switch rather than a splitter. That way there is no potential for any signal degradation from any potential impedance mismatch from the isolation transformers. However, the Whirlwind splitters get great reviews so there's probably minimal risk.

Provided that this splitter will work, I'm making an assumption here below.

For the G2 the path would be microphone >splitter >direct output >ASIO interface >PC >G2?

That path will work fine.

For the two ICOM radios the microphone > splitter >isolated outputs >ACC Ports on the rigs?

There is still a missing piece, which is the necessity for a balanced to unbalanced transition into the ACC port. So you'll need to use a cheater cable, or use a real transformer unit (commonly known as a passive direct box). However, the W9IHY box will solve that problem for you, and while it isn't of much value with the G2, it is still much better than what is built into the Icom radios for audio tailoring. I'd continue to use it with the Icoms.
WT4DX
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon May 22, 2023 2:06 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby WT4DX » Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:15 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:
WT4DX wrote:Taking the W2IHY equipment out of the equation, would a splitter such as this be a solution for interfacing the G2 and two ICOM radios to a single microphone? https://www.whirlwindusa.com/products/b ... l-splitter

You can't use the line level version. You have to use the mic level version:

https://www.whirlwindusa.com/products/s ... -splitters

However, if it were me I'd still go with a switch rather than a splitter. That way there is no potential for any signal degradation from any potential impedance mismatch from the isolation transformers. However, the Whirlwind splitters get great reviews so there's probably minimal risk.

Provided that this splitter will work, I'm making an assumption here below.

For the G2 the path would be microphone >splitter >direct output >ASIO interface >PC >G2?

That path will work fine.

For the two ICOM radios the microphone > splitter >isolated outputs >ACC Ports on the rigs?

There is still a missing piece, which is the necessity for a balanced to unbalanced transition into the ACC port. So you'll need to use a cheater cable, or use a real transformer unit (commonly known as a passive direct box). However, the W9IHY box will solve that problem for you, and while it isn't of much value with the G2, it is still much better than what is built into the Icom radios for audio tailoring. I'd continue to use it with the Icoms.



I'm going to go with your original recomendation using a switch, and I'll stick to the W2IHY equipment for the ICOM rigs.

I did see that the PreSonus Studio 192 Mobile has been discontinued, and it looks as though the Studio 68c or the 1810c may be the equvilant replacement?

Is there a Studio model that you would recommend?


Tem
WT4DX
User avatar
w-u-2-o
Posts: 5539
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:47 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:30 pm

WT4DX wrote:I did see that the PreSonus Studio 192 Mobile has been discontinued, and it looks as though the Studio 68c or the 1810c may be the equvilant replacement?

Is there a Studio model that you would recommend?

Unfortunately there is no equivalent replacement for the Studio 192. It was unique in that it was the lowest cost interface available that had an external wordclock (sound studio speak for sample clock) input. Because now that the 192 has been discontinued you have to jump into the over $1K market to get that, which sucks. For that reason the Studio 192 continues to sell on eBay for sometimes more than they cost new! Why is this of interest you might ask? Some of us who are on the bleeding edge are feeding our USB sound interfaces AND our ANAN's with GPSDO derived clocks in order to phase lock them. Not something everyone needs to do!

At any rate you are making the mistake of thinking you need an "equivalent" interface, or at least one that looks like mine. You can do this for less than $100 with a Behringer UMC202HD. The Behringer hardware and driver software is very good. And really all these interfaces are very similar, hardware-wise. They differ only in how good their driver software is. From that perspective I'd say stay away from Focusrite and Steinberg, their driver software is ill-behaved.

I do very much like the Presonus, but their driver and software setup is somewhat more complex (you can do a lot more with it) and might be more than you want to bite off on initially. However, the Presonus Studio 24C will do everything that is necessary, no need to jump up to a 68C or 1810C.

The Motu M2 is also very much worth looking at. It's a little pricey IMHO, but it has unbalanced line outputs on the back in addition to the balanced outputs. This can be handy for people who don't want to feed powered speakers with a balanced connection.
WT4DX
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon May 22, 2023 2:06 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby WT4DX » Fri Jun 02, 2023 7:22 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:
WT4DX wrote:I did see that the PreSonus Studio 192 Mobile has been discontinued, and it looks as though the Studio 68c or the 1810c may be the equvilant replacement?

Is there a Studio model that you would recommend?

Unfortunately there is no equivalent replacement for the Studio 192. It was unique in that it was the lowest cost interface available that had an external wordclock (sound studio speak for sample clock) input. Because now that the 192 has been discontinued you have to jump into the over $1K market to get that, which sucks. For that reason the Studio 192 continues to sell on eBay for sometimes more than they cost new! Why is this of interest you might ask? Some of us who are on the bleeding edge are feeding our USB sound interfaces AND our ANAN's with GPSDO derived clocks in order to phase lock them. Not something everyone needs to do!

At any rate you are making the mistake of thinking you need an "equivalent" interface, or at least one that looks like mine. You can do this for less than $100 with a Behringer UMC202HD. The Behringer hardware and driver software is very good. And really all these interfaces are very similar, hardware-wise. They differ only in how good their driver software is. From that perspective I'd say stay away from Focusrite and Steinberg, their driver software is ill-behaved.

I do very much like the Presonus, but their driver and software setup is somewhat more complex (you can do a lot more with it) and might be more than you want to bite off on initially. However, the Presonus Studio 24C will do everything that is necessary, no need to jump up to a 68C or 1810C.

The Motu M2 is also very much worth looking at. It's a little pricey IMHO, but it has unbalanced line outputs on the back in addition to the balanced outputs. This can be handy for people who don't want to feed powered speakers with a balanced connection.


Do you notice a significant difference in a phase locked signal, and I'm assuming that difference can be measured?

I'll have to do a deep dive on a phase locked loop to have a better understanding of the mechanics. You just gave me some homework.

Looking at the manual for the 26c/ 68c there appears to be a difference in the pre-amps between the two, and is one significantly better than the other?

"The STUDIO26c features XMAX-L solid-state microphone preamps that are optimized for bus powering. The STUDIO68c features XMAX microphone preamps with a Class A input buffer, followed by a dual-servo gain stage."


Tem
WT4DX
User avatar
w-u-2-o
Posts: 5539
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:47 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Jun 02, 2023 7:33 pm

The whole phase locked thing is an expensive way to improve upon the VAC resampler system. What some (very few) people have done is use a Leo Bodnar GPSDO unit and programmed one output for 10MHz to go to the ANAN, and the other for 48KHz to go to the audio interface. But given the very large expense associated with a wordclock capable interface, I'd say it's not worth it for someone just starting out with digital audio.

There is a lengthy thread about GPSDO's here: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2499

There is a very lengthy thread about the resampler and wordclocks here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3901

As for the difference in preamp quality, those differences are almost certainly lost or wasted in an amateur radio context. Any of the pro USB interfaces are going to be head and shoulders above a "normal" ham radio mic preamp. No need to gild the lily any further at that point.
WT4DX
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon May 22, 2023 2:06 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby WT4DX » Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:09 am

I spent some time looking at the two threads that you provided, as well as additional information on GPSDOs and PLLs. And it looks as though a GPSDO is in my future for both the G2 and the IC-7610.

The dual output Leo Bodnar for the G2, and the mini Leo Bodnar for the IC-7610 seem to be solid options.

I do realize that there’s a cost to achieve what some might consider a minor and unnecessary correction, just as there are those who consider adaptive pre-distortion and stellar audio unnecessary. However I’m in the camp that if if something can be improved upon, I’m going to strive for that improvement. Thus the attraction the ANAN platform.

With that said what are some of the viable options for a word clock capable interface? I see that PreSonus has their Quantum, but I’m sure there are perhaps other alternatives.

Thank again!

Tem
WT4DX
User avatar
w-u-2-o
Posts: 5539
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:47 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:00 am

AFAIK the least expensive option would be to find a good deal on a Presonus Studio 192 (mobile or rack version) on eBay. Everything else will be 2 or 3 times the price.
N1ZLE
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:55 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby N1ZLE » Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:49 am

Take a peek on Reverb.com for great used (and new) audio gear as well.
https://reverb.com/p/presonus-studio-19 ... -interface
If it's not broke, fix it until it is :shock:
User avatar
w-u-2-o
Posts: 5539
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:47 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:26 am

Cool site!

There's one on there right now for $229. That's a screaming deal!
WT4DX
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon May 22, 2023 2:06 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby WT4DX » Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:24 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:Cool site!

There's one on there right now for $229. That's a screaming deal!


I picked up a Quantum 2, and thank you for the push to roll with a used model.


Tem
WT4DX
User avatar
w-u-2-o
Posts: 5539
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:47 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:02 pm

Do you already have a Thunderbolt 2 interface on your PC?
WT4DX
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon May 22, 2023 2:06 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby WT4DX » Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:12 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:Do you already have a Thunderbolt 2 interface on your PC?


I would need an adapter. If there are issues with using such, let me know and I'll punt the order.

Thanks!

Tem
WT4DX
User avatar
w-u-2-o
Posts: 5539
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:47 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:16 pm

Never used Thunderbolt of any type, so I couldn't say.
WT4DX
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon May 22, 2023 2:06 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby WT4DX » Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:52 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:Never used Thunderbolt of any type, so I couldn't say.


Looking at the computer requirements for the Quantum line on the PreSonus website there's mention of needing an adapter, so I'm assuming all will be well.

Tem
WT4DX
Ng5u
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2023 8:18 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby Ng5u » Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:10 pm

Speaking of this. I’m trying to get my Presonus 26c line out to connect to my icom 7610. It has very low audio level but not sure why. I’m using an isolation transformer but I thought the line level would be enough output to drive the mic input. Do I use Studio One to set levels???? Needing any advice. I know this is vague. Eventually I’ll be using the ASIO to interface with my Anan too.
User avatar
w-u-2-o
Posts: 5539
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:47 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:45 am

I'm assuming your Presonus comes with the Universal Control driver and app. This usually sits in your Windows system tray. Open it up, then click on your device in the list and it will open up a main mixer control panel (this is not Studio One). Make adjustments there as necessary. You may wish to attach a powered speaker to the line out to facilitate this.

The complex control panel is the thing that makes the Presonus line so flexible, but it can be confusing to those with no audio background. The ergonomics of the control panel also leave something to be desired.

Capture3.JPG
Capture3.JPG (371.94 KiB) Viewed 13629 times
Ng5u
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2023 8:18 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby Ng5u » Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:48 pm

Ahh. This is the piece I knew I was missing but didn’t know what it was. I will tinker with this later today. I did get JBL studio monitors and they sound fabulous. I had some EQ software already and that with those speakers is unreal what you can do with music. I’ll reroute radio audio through it when I get back in the shack. Thanks once again for the great info. 73. Joe NG5U
Ng5u
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2023 8:18 pm

Re: Microphone/ Audio Interface Options

Postby Ng5u » Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:44 pm

I can’t get my 26c to bring up the mixer in universal control. It does nothing when you click it…. But…. I got my line output correct for my 7610. It has plenty of audio. I added the noise gate in Studio One to eliminate background noise and it is working fantastic to my radio. This is really terrific! Now if I can just get a new Anan soon, I can’t wait to really explore. But you are right about one thing… the JBL studio monitors are game changers for receive audio!

Return to “Microphones, Speakers & Audio Hardware”