Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

USB headsets to digital audio workstation software...
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:43 pm

K1LSB wrote:Here are my current settings...

Mark

Mark--how many under/overflow counts/hour are you seeing with your current settings?
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby ramdor » Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:50 pm

The red line on the graphs just show what is coming out of the rmatch diag functions. The matcher runs continuously, but when varRatio is used in the code, it is presented with the fixed version if the flag is set, instead of the calculated version.

The number of samples in the ring buffer and ring size are taken directly from the ring object and used to determine occupancy (yellow line on graph), and yes they will be correct irrespective of forced/not forced. The variable sampler is provided the ratio (calculated or forced/fixed).

There is so much magic going on in there my eyes boggle. That said, the reset of the forced flag issue is resolved :lol:

R.
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby ramdor » Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:54 pm

oh just to follow up on the 'do we want to see fvar returned from diags functions if forced is enabled'. Yep if forced, it would result in the var ratio displayed in setup monitor mirroring the value actually presented to the variable resampler and not the calculated var (that is not used in this case). It would have revealed this bug tbh.

R.
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby ramdor » Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:35 pm

Here is the forced flag fix. Also returns fvar instead of the calc'ed var when forced is on. It is somewhat pointless to show the var ratio if it is not being used as it will have no impact on under/overruns.

Holding off putting on main post for now.

Richie.

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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby w9mdb » Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:38 pm

ramdor wrote:Here is the forced flag fix. Also returns fvar instead of the calc'ed var when forced it on. It is somewhat pointless to show the var ratio if it is not being used as it will have no impact on under/overruns.

Holding off putting on main post for now.

Richie.

21k4 link : https://bit.ly/3kJ9dgK
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BTW...when you post a new version on the 1st page could you also announce it here? Otherwise we don't a topic notification if you just edit it.
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby ramdor » Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:42 pm

w9mdb wrote:
ramdor wrote:Here is the forced flag fix. Also returns fvar instead of the calc'ed var when forced it on. It is somewhat pointless to show the var ratio if it is not being used as it will have no impact on under/overruns.

Holding off putting on main post for now.

Richie.

21k4 link : https://bit.ly/3kJ9dgK
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BTW...when you post a new version on the 1st page could you also announce it here? Otherwise we don't a topic notification if you just edit it.


I always post at the end of the main thread. I can't really keep track of posting in other places, sorry. When k5 goes up, it will be posted into the other thread. 21k4 is just a test build tbh.

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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:41 pm

@ramdor

24k4 seems to be working just fine with respect to the VAC fix. Thanks! :)

Short term test for 3 hours with advanced parameters back to default, GPS reference and force = on, was OUT 1/0 IN 0/0. This is looking much better than with the resampler, as expected.

Now trying the same test but with 24k4, and If I can be patient :D I'll let that run for 12 hours, same as the other tests.

Again, just want to add that having FF Alpha exposed really seems to help for the more normal case of a sound card internal reference. I'm not inclined to mess with anything except for Feedback Gain and FF Alpha. Pending other folk's results, I suspect that the advanced settings can be reduced to only those two values.
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby ramdor » Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:17 pm

ah, good stuff Scott. Yep that forced vac issue was a bit annoying.

I have not spent much time playing with the audio stuff really, I'll wait until all the results are in ;)

Cheers, Richie.
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby K1LSB » Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:26 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:
K1LSB wrote:Here are my current settings...

Mark

Mark--how many under/overflow counts/hour are you seeing with your current settings?

I'm guessing maybe 2 or 3 in an hour, I haven't bothered doing the time lapse studies you do, but typically I'll go 20 minutes or so without seeing any changes in the underflow/overflow fields.
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby K1LSB » Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:48 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:@ramdor

Again, just want to add that having FF Alpha exposed really seems to help for the more normal case of a sound card internal reference. I'm not inclined to mess with anything except for Feedback Gain and FF Alpha. Pending other folk's results, I suspect that the advanced settings can be reduced to only those two values.

I must say that changes I've been making to several of the Advanced values seem to make a difference to the stability of the underflow/overflows. Specifically, the Prop Feedback Min and Max and the FF Moving Av Min have all been changed from the default values in my setup, and tweaking any of those fields appears to have an effect on underflow/overflow stability.

For my own part, I vote to keep all of the current Advanced settings available. I see no persuasive reason to remove any of them. A bold warning is stated at the top of the window that the user plays with those values at his own risk, and a Default button is available in case someone does screw the pooch, so I see no downside to keeping the settings available.

I personally disfavor removing options just because some (or even most) folks don't use them.

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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby ramdor » Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:55 pm

@mark

I think I would probably go on a hiatus if we decided to pull all that after the nightmare adding it in. lol. Perhaps another tab? [More Advanced Than The Other Advanced] :lol:

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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby K1LSB » Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:08 pm

Rich,

IMO it's perfectly fine like it is, no additional tab needed.

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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby oe3ide » Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:53 pm

ramdor wrote:@mark

I think I would probably go on a hiatus if we decided to pull all that after the nightmare adding it in. lol. Perhaps another tab? [More Advanced Than The Other Advanced] :lol:

R.


I would suggest "ludicrous settings" :lol:

73 Ernst
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby ramdor » Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:06 pm

oe3ide wrote:
ramdor wrote:@mark

I think I would probably go on a hiatus if we decided to pull all that after the nightmare adding it in. lol. Perhaps another tab? [More Advanced Than The Other Advanced] :lol:

R.


I would suggest "ludicrous settings" :lol:

73 Ernst


hah yep, brilliant :lol:
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby w-u-2-o » Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:37 pm

Now on the unofficial beta 21k4 with the Var Ratio bug fix. Resummarizing results:

Feedback Gain: 0.0000001 (1E-07)
FF Alpha: 0.005

Much more stable for the resampler active cases.

In every case the Var Ratio settled down and stayed within ±2E-06 of the final value.

The only downside is you have to wait a few minutes for stability to occur. You can actually watch the accumulation of under/over flows slow down and then ultimately stop, and watch the neat graph that Richie has provided us flatten out.

I gave three different configurations each 12 or more hours to "soak" and accumulate under/over flow counts. I zeroed each counter after 5 minutes, which seemed an adequate settling time as described above. PC activity during each soak period was light and typical. Most of the time the PC was left alone.

In the following results counts are shown as OUT Over/Under and IN Over/Under.

1) Presonus internal reference with resampler, soak time 12 hours: OUT 17/2 IN 1/11. Total counts of any type: 31. Counts per hour: 2.6.
2) Presonus GPS reference with resampler soak time 12 hours: OUT 9/5 IN 3/4. Total counts of any type: 21. Counts per hour: 1.8.
3) Presonus GPS reference Force=ON, soak time 20 hours: OUT 18/7 IN 7/10. Total counts of any type: 42. Counts per hour: 2.1.

Unfortunately, the soak time on test 3 extended to more than 12 hours. I suspect that at 12 hour it would have been too close to call with test 2.

TAKE-AWAYS

Performance in my complex environment (interface --> Voicemeeter --> DAW) is effectively too close to call for all three configurations, but only with the changes made to Feedback Gain and FF Alpha. No need for a GPS reference for the audio interface.

My guess is that for folks whose configuration is simpler, say just an audio interface, or an interface with Voicemeeter, performance will be better than 2 counts/hour and with the changes suggested they probably would not benefit from a GPS reference on the interface either.

For those who are very particular about there FT8 frequency accuracy/stability, or who take part in frequency measurement events (FME), with the Feedback Gain and FF Alpha changes above performance should be much improved over using the Force option.

If we can get enough feedback on this subject, it may be worth changing the VAC advanced parameter defaults in Thetis, with a caveat that a 5 minute "warm up" is required for achieving this higher level of stability.

Cheers!

Scott

P.S. I do believe that a GPSDO 10MHz reference for the main radio hardware unit is a worthwhile thing to have, and recommend anything that you can get off of eBay (e.g. the venerable BG7TBL unit from China) that has an ovenized crystal oscillator (OCXO) in it. This will generally outperform a TCXO unit like the Bodnar, particularly for long-term stability, although I may be splitting hairs here ;)
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby ramdor » Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:02 pm

Very nice Scott. Can you run exactly the same tests, and tabulate in the same way, with default settings in Advanced tab?

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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby w-u-2-o » Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:10 pm

I will endeavor to do so!
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby w-u-2-o » Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:18 pm

As requested, switching back to all defaults in VAC advanced settings, we have the following results. Counts are shown as OUT Over/Under and IN Over/Under.

With the defaults Var Ratio now wanders approx. ±5E-05. This is substantially worse than with the modified settings, where it wanders only ±2E-06.

1) Presonus internal reference with resampler, soak time 8 hours: OUT 68/4 IN 3/12. Total counts of any type: 87. Counts per hour: 10.9.

This was looking not so good. I had kept all buffers at 0 the same as my previous testing. So I cut this test short at 8 hours and bumped the buffers to 2 on the Ringbuffers and 1 on PortAudio in order to try to achieve better performance with the default VAC advanced settings.

2) Presonus internal reference with resampler and increased buffers, soak time 12 hours: OUT 67/12 IN 10/14. Total counts of any type: 103. Counts per hour: 8.6.

Overall this, for me and my conditions here (this can't be stressed enough, this is only one person trying this), the defaults work 3 to 4 times worse than the modified settings I was using for my first round of tests.

Just to review, the changes I made for the first round of tests were Feedback Gain 1E-07 (default is 4E-06), FF Alpha .005 (default is .01).
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby Tony EI7BMB » Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:43 pm

Thanks for posting your settings Mark. I am testing your advanced settings and I notice right away that the VAR ratios move in a much tighetr range once they settle down so looking really solid here.


K1LSB wrote:Scott,

FWIW, my latest VAC1 and Advanced settings appear to eliminate the need to uncheck/recheck the RingBuffer boxes after a Thetis session startup (at least for me).

I don't have any fancy clock hardware. And I've left VAC2 alone for now, focusing on VAC1.

Here are my current settings:



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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby K1LSB » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:21 am

Tony EI7BMB wrote:Thanks for posting your settings Mark. I am testing your advanced settings and I notice right away that the VAR ratios move in a much tighetr range once they settle down so looking really solid here.

Tony,

Here's my latest Advanced settings, the most stable yet. Still no need to uncheck/recheck the RingBuffer boxes.

Audio Advanced.PNG
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:46 am

Mark,

I'm right in the middle of testing your "old" settings, don't want to change to your latest in the middle of the experiment. However, preliminary results show superior performance of your settings over the defaults, or my own less aggressive attempts.

Preliminary results:

- GPS + resampler: 1.4 counts/hour. Smack on 1.000000 var ratio. Interesting, buffer occupancy is skewed at 35 out, 65 in. This is a home run, best so far.

- GPS fixed (forced): 9.5 counts/hour -- this is an unexpected train wreck and it implies that something in advanced settings has an effect even when Force = ON. However var ratio remains smack on 1.000000.

- Internal reference + resampler: just started this 5 minutes ago, but already looking very good.

I feel like I need to wait 10-20 minutes before zeroing the counters with your settings though. They take a long time to settle.

More to follow tomorrow morning EDT.

73!

Scott
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby Tony EI7BMB » Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:02 am

Scott/Mark yes I am seeing the same long settle time too.


w-u-2-o wrote:Mark,
I feel like I need to wait 10-20 minutes before zeroing the counters with your settings though. They take a long time to settle.


73!

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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:22 pm

Summary of results:

Default settings

- Presonus internal reference with resampler, soak time 8 hours: OUT 68/4 IN 3/12. Total counts of any type: 87. Counts per hour: 10.9.
- Comments: settling time of under a minute. Var ratio wanders ±5E-05. Poor symmetry of var ratios between in and out directions.

Feedback Gain: 1E-07
FF Alpha: 0.005


- Presonus internal reference with resampler, soak time 12 hours: OUT 17/2 IN 1/11. Total counts of any type: 31. Counts per hour: 2.6.
- Presonus GPS reference with resampler soak, time 12 hours: OUT 9/5 IN 3/4. Total counts of any type: 21. Counts per hour: 1.8.
- Presonus GPS reference Force=ON, soak time 20 hours: OUT 18/7 IN 7/10. Total counts of any type: 42. Counts per hour: 2.1.
- Comments: settling time of around 5 minutes. Var ratio wanders ±2E-06. Good symmetry of var ratios between in and out directions.

Feeback Gain: 1E-08
FF Alpha: 0.0001
Slew Time: 0.00005
Prop Feedback Min: 256
Prop Feedback Max: 8192
FF Moving Av Min: 8192


- Presonus internal reference with resampler, soak time 13 hours: OUT 26/3 IN 1/9. Total counts of any type: 39. Counts per hour: 3.0.
- Presonus GPS reference with resampler, soak time 8 hours: OUT 10/1 IN 0/0. Total counts of any type: 10. Counts per hour: 1.3.
- Presonus GPS reference Force=ON, soak time 8 hours: OUT 29/9 IN 9/29. Total counts of any type: 76. Counts per hour: 9.5.
- Presonus GPS reference Force=ON, soak time 8 hours: OUT 6/4 IN 3/3. Total counts of any type: 16. Counts per hour: 2.0.
- Comments: settling time of around 10 minutes. Var ratio wanders ±1E-06. Good symmetry of var ratios between in and out directions.
- Comments: Initial datapoint with GPS with Force=ON must have been bad data, probably produced by some OS activity that caused a burst of under/overruns. Rerunning the data point resulted in data that was consistent with other tests.

Conclusions

1) Lowering Feedback Gain and FF Alpha parameters improve averaging and result in a more accurate and stable var ratio, and thus fewer buffer under/overrun counts per hour. Measured this way there is somewhere between a 3 and 4 times improvement in performance vs. the default settings. This comes at the expense of var ratio settling time.

2) Further lowering of Feedback Gain and FF Alpha parameters, and other changes as shown, result in diminishing returns, if any, and much longer settling times. The resulting var ratio wandering is severely constrained, perhaps it might be too tightly constrained.

3) Assuming reasonable quality in an audio interface internal reference, and considering that I did not control the activity of the PC in a rigorous way, it is hard to state that there is any significant difference in performance with or without a GPS derived timing for the audio interface. More interestingly, if taken at face value, the combination of GPS timing and the resampler is slightly better than with GPS timing alone.

4) One advantage of using a GPS timing reference for the audio interface without the resampler is that that settling time is zero.

5) The reader is reminded that to use a GPS timing reference this is required for both the audio interface and the ANAN hardware; only providing a reference at the audio interface is pointless.

Recommendations

- It is would be very good if others could try a revised Feedback Gain of 1E-07 (0.0000001) and FF Alpha of .005 and provide reports on the performance of those changes.

- Assuming reports are good, consider changing the default values of these parameters.

- While a GPS timing reference at the audio interface is of questionable value, having one for the ANAN hardware has significant benefits for frequency accuracy and stability and is worth considering on that basis.

73,

Scott
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby Tony EI7BMB » Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:54 pm

Will test that starting now Scott

w-u-2-o wrote:Summary of results:
Recommendations

- It is would be very good if others could try a revised Feedback Gain of 1E-07 (0.0000001) and FF Alpha of .005 and provide reports on the performance of those changes.

73,

Scott
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby oe3ide » Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:34 pm

- It is would be very good if others could try a revised Feedback Gain of 1E-07 (0.0000001) and FF Alpha of .005 and provide reports on the performance of those changes.


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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby Tony EI7BMB » Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:34 pm

Took a little while for buffers to adjust but no Over/Underflows after 4 hours using these settings . I may not be the best test subject however as VAC was solid using default settings on my PC.

Tony EI7BMB wrote:Will test that starting now Scott

w-u-2-o wrote:Summary of results:
Recommendations

- It is would be very good if others could try a revised Feedback Gain of 1E-07 (0.0000001) and FF Alpha of .005 and provide reports on the performance of those changes.

73,

Scott
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:00 pm

Reran that data point that looked sketchy. Second run produced results that were expected and consistent. See updated results in my post above.
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby K1LSB » Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:55 am

w-u-2-o wrote:- It would be very good if others could try a revised Feedback Gain of 1E-07 (0.0000001) and FF Alpha of .005 and provide reports on the performance of those changes.

Scott,

I tried those settings and got rather poor underflow/overflow results (max of 7 per field per hour).

Then I reduced the Feedback Gain to 1E-08 (0.00000001) and stability so far is astonishing! Been running for over 2 hours now and not a single underflow/overflow! And that's while rag chewing in Thetis and simultaneously using the computer for nonstop internet. No telling how long this stellar performance is going to continue but I did want to report my findings.

FWIW my computer is a slightly overclocked and heavily undervolted i7-6700K on an MSI motherboard with 16 gig of RAM and an old GTX 970 video card.

Here's all of my current settings:

Audio VAC1.PNG
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Audio Advanced.PNG
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby w-u-2-o » Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:07 pm

Mark -- testing your settings now.
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Re: Thetis 2.8.11-21+++ VAC advanced controls: results and discussion

Postby Joe-W4WT » Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:42 pm

I've been using Marks latest and I have to say it is working very well for me. My VAC 1 page and my Advanced page are identical to what Mark has and I notice that, indeed, turning on the power doesn't result in a runaway anymore; at least not for long if at all. If I do get a power on runaway it doesn't go but just a few seconds and then stops. I get no runaways during operation anymore. I didn't have results this good with other settings that just included the Feedback Gain and Alpha settings. After 12 hours overnight with the machine running DxLab software, Brave Browser with several web sites open including a web page displaying my eight security cameras (4 megapixels each), PstRotatorAZ, Nitro Reader, and Thunderbird email, My To VAC was 17/39 and my From VAC was 41/14. This is more than acceptable to me. I operated yesterday on multiple bands for several hours with no runaways whatsoever and very little "creep" in the numbers; less than five.

My machine is an I7-9700K. I don't overclock it. I do run a "high performance plan" for power. I run the Thetis "Process Priority" in "normal" mode. I'm running 2.1.18 firmware on a 7000DLE Black.

Thanks for the settings Mark!

Joe W4WT

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