Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

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Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby K8EZB » Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:18 pm

ANAN newbie here with first post re using an Acom 1200S amp and Acom 04AT companion tuner with a new (on order) 7000DLE Mk II. The Acom amp/tuner supports a TUNE function in which the amp/tuner sends CAT commands to the controlling radio (700DLE in this case) to set a specific mode (RTTY or FM) and power level and keys the radio in order for the tuner to find a workable LC tune combination, then returns the radio to the prior emission mode and unkeys. I am attempting to determine if Thetis CAT will accept these commands and execute them correctly. Any guidance appreciated. The Acom amp supports several different common CAT command set including Kenwood. I think I have determined a hardware configuration to support a CAT connection. I have done some searching on this site and others and so far have found nothing specific re this topic. Any guidance much appreciated.

I have been using this amp/tuner with Icom and Yaesu radios for some time, and the TUNE function works as expected with these radios.

Rick
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:04 pm

Thetis and its predecessor, PowerSDR mRX PS, implement a CAT command structure that is based on Kenwood CAT commands for the fundamental stuff. You should probably try that and see if it works.
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby K8EZB » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:12 pm

You should probably try that and see if it works.


Well, ... yes. However, Apache says a 6-8 week wait for the 7000DLE. I am hoping to learn whether this works before then as it will determine whether I purchase the Acom gear for a new station.

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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:05 pm

Unfortunately, unless someone else posts that they've done it, you are probably going to be the test pilot on this one ;)

FWIW, people have successfully integrated with ACOM amps for frequency changes.
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby Joe-W4WT » Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:46 pm

Rick, if you post the Kenwood commands the Acom sends to the radio, I'll be happy to input them and see if they elicit a response. If they do, I'll provide you that response from the radio if you like. I'm using a 7000DLE MkII Black.

Joe W4WT.
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby K8EZB » Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:54 pm

you are probably going to be the test pilot on this one ;)


General aviation pilot for 55 years - I can do this, But not until I receive the 7000DLE in (hopefully) 8 weeks!

RB
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby K8EZB » Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:01 am

if you post the Kenwood commands the Acom sends to the radio


Joe,

At present I don't know the specific Kenwood CAT commands sent by the amp/tuner. I'll do some digging to see if I can find these. Generically these would be something like:

1. Get current radio status and save
2. Change mode to RTTY (or FM)
3. Set power level to 30 watts
4. Key TX
5. Unkey TX
6. Restore previous radio status

Thanks for the offer.

RB
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby K8EZB » Thu Feb 24, 2022 1:52 am

I have finally been able to pair a 7000DLE with an Acom 1200S amp and Acom 04AT auto tuner. So far, some good news and some bad news:

 Good news: The amp is set up on Thetis CAT3 and follows AL7K frequency changes as expected.

 Bad news:

o The Acom 04AT automated TUNE procedure (based on CAT commands issued by the amp/tuner to the AL7K) does not work and results in an amp protection fault. This is not unexpected given the research I have done prior to installing the amp. BTW, this TUNE procedure works well with recent Icom and Yaesu transceivers.

o The amp/tuner provides for a manual tune procedure in the case when the automated procedure is not supported. This involves applying a steady signal from the AL7K to the Acom tuner to enable the tuner to find a workable LC combination. The tuner annunciates if a match is found, or, times out with a message stating that the tune procedure failed. In testing so far, the tuner fails to find a match every time for an antenna that is known to have a low SWR in the 40 m phone band. In trying to understand why this is happening, I have observed that the power from the AL7K in either CW or FM mode when using the Thetis TUN function is not stable, but varies, apparently randomly, within a window of about 10% of the tune power setting (about 3 watts with TUN power set to 30 watts). My current thinking is that this power fluctuation may be affecting the operation of the Acom tuner such that it isn’t able to find an LC match. So, I am trying to understand if this AL7K power fluctuation is a known characteristic of the AL7K, or is due to some kind of hardware or software issue, or is, perhaps, pilot error of some kind, or is due to some other cause. Any guidance much appreciated.

I have been using the AL7K for just a few weeks and am more than a little impressed with overall capabilities! Getting some excellent reports on SSB and working DX on FT8, PSK31, and RTTY with no issues. It will be difficult to go back to a conventional radio. This power fluctuation issue is the only issue encountered to date.

Rick
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby K8EZB » Thu Feb 24, 2022 2:10 am

PS: The amp works well with the AL7K except for the tuner issue. Running P2 v2.1.18 with Thetis 21k8.

Rick
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby K8EZB » Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:21 pm

AL7K power fluctuation problem solved. Turned out to be an intermittent RF connection. Remaining issue is to get Thetis to handle CAT commands from tuner properly.

Rick
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:53 pm

What type of radio did you tell the ACOM it was attached to?

Have you instrumented the serial port to see what commands it is sending?
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby K8EZB » Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:58 pm

What type of radio did you tell the ACOM it was attached to?

Command Set 5: "Kenwood TS-2000, 480, 590, 890, 990, and similar" according to the amp/tuner manuals.

Have you instrumented the serial port to see what commands it is sending?

Not yet, as I am only about 24 hours into using the amp. I have asked ACOM to provide documentation on the CAT commands sent to the AL7K by the amp/tuner. No response so far but this request is less than 24 hours old. The tuner needs a 20-30 watt carrier to perform the TUNE function. In my Icom and Yaesu radios, the tuner changes the mode to RTTY or FM, sets the power level to 30 watts, keys the radio for enough time to do the TUNE function, then restores the settings of the radio prior to initiating the TUNE. Hoping to find a way to make this work with Thetis. I am able to do a TUNE manually, IOW, not relying on the CAT connection, so I know the amp/tuner are working.

Rick
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby K8EZB » Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:01 pm

PS: CAT control of the amp is working as the amp follow freq/band changes commanded by the AL7K.

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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:32 am

When you figure out what the Acom is doing, you can check it against the old PowerSDR CAT command reference document:

https://github.com/TAPR/OpenHPSDR-PowerSDR/blob/master/Documentation/Radio/PowerSDR-CAT-Command-Reference-Guide-V3.docx

AFIAK the Kenwood compatible commands, which start on page 83, have not changed since that was written.
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby K8EZB » Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:00 am

When you figure out what the Acom is doing, you can check it against the old PowerSDR CAT command reference document:


ACOM-AL7K instrumented to show CAT commands from the amp/tuner to the AL7K with excellent coaching from Bob, N6TV, one of his S-Boxes, and PuTTY. here is what I am seeing:

FA;FA;FA;FA;FA;FA;FA;FA;FA;FA;FA;FA;FA;FA;FA;FA;FA;FA;FA;FA;PC;PC;PC;PC;PC;MD;MD;MD;MD;MD;DT;DT;DT;DT;DT;MD6;MD;MD6;MD;MD6;MD;MD6;MD;MD6;MD;MD6;MD;MD6;MD;MD6;MD;MD6;MD;MD6;MD;MD6;MD;MD6;MD;MD6;MD;DT2;DT2;DT2;DT2;MG;MG000;MG;MG000;MG;MG000;MG;MG000;MG;PC000;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TTXTX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;TX;RX;FA00000000000;FA;FA00000

Generally, this is much like I expected, but with some puzzles like the DT command, which I am told is an Elecraft command. This probably makes sense as ACOM instructs to use the same amp command set for both Kenwood and Elecraft (Command Set 5 on the amp CAT setup page). One place where things seem to be coming apart is the ACOM command to set FSK mode for the amp TUNE operation. The tuner needs a steady carrier of about 25 watts power level to run the TUNE process. Apparently the AL7K does not support FSK (AFSK instead). Another puzzle is why the AL7K VFO is set to 0.00 at the end of the cycle. Some alternatives might include using CW or FM modes, or using the AL7K ZZ commands to set TUN power and enable/disable the TUN mode. This doesn't look like a difficult problem to solve. more difficult is who can/will do it. Hoping some kind of Thetis patch might be possible.

Rick
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby K8EZB » Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:17 am

PS: I have tested all of the CAT commands issued by the ACOM amp/tuner to the AL7K and all seem to work correctly except for the MD6 command which results in DIGL mode instead of the needed FSK. (DIGL is in accordance with the PowerSDR 3.0 spec for this command.)

My study of the issue suggests that if MD6 in this ACOM command string could be translated to MD4 (FM) by Thetis, the auto tuner would work. A little more to it no doubt, but not all that difficult it would seem. There are likely more elegant ways to do the job using the TUN function in the AL7K but somewhat more involved.

A change in the ACOM firmware is another solution, but this firmware currently supports the auto TUNE function for Kenwood, Icom and Yaesu radios so I am not expecting any action of the part of ACOM in this direction. In my email communications with ACOM, they suggest that the radio should correctly execute the Kenwood commands. Hard to disagree given that many other radios do so. The Thetis developers decided to do things differently for reasons not yet clear to me.

Rick
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:08 pm

Those CAT commands are a total train wreck. They don't even appear to be correct for a regular Kenwood radio.
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby K8EZB » Sat Mar 05, 2022 1:38 am

Those CAT commands are a total train wreck


Is that better or worse than a dumpster fire? In any event, we're on it! Have been corresponding with ACOM-Bulgaria via email and they have provided this list of CAT commands sent by the amp during a TUNE operation:

FA; *polling the radio frequency
PC; *polling the radio output power
PC000; *sets the radio power 0W
MD; *polling the radio mode
MD6; *sets mode FSK
DT; *polling the data mode
DT2; *sets data mode FSK
MG; *polling microphone gain
MG000; *sets mike gain 0
TX; *switch the radio to TX mode
PC013
PC026
PC039
PC052 *Ramping up the radio output power until OK for tune up
RX; *switch to RX mode
PCxxx;
MDyyy;
DTzzz;
MGnnn; Sets back the radio initial power and mode

I am working with Carl, N4PY to use his Pegasus software to translate these commands into something Thetis can execute so that the ACOM TUNE function works as it should. We are there except for some cleanup work. The MD6 command is executed by Thetis as a mode change to DIGL. (In the Kenwood spec, MD6 corresponds to FSK.) Basically, this ACOM command is translated to MD4 (FM mode) in the N4PY software before it is seen by Thetis. The radio goes to FM mode and this provides a carrier suitable for the tuner. There is a bit more to it than this but straightforward enough. If the radio supported FSK, this would not be necessary.

The train wreck was likely due to poor instrumentation for monitoring the CAT commands.


Rick
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Mar 05, 2022 2:30 pm

K8EZB wrote:The train wreck was likely due to poor instrumentation for monitoring the CAT commands.

That makes sense. And the new data is much clearer.

Maybe you could talk Acom into adding a Thetis compatible mode. It's only a tiny change.
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby K8EZB » Sat Mar 05, 2022 2:37 pm

Maybe you could talk Acom into adding a Thetis compatible mode. It's only a tiny change.


I have asked repeatedly. Not going to happen in any relevant time frame. ACOM view is: "If Thetis/AL7K followed the Kenwood spec, there would be no problem." I'd pretty much agree with this position, Yaesu, Icom, Kenwood, Elecraft follow the Kenwood spec and work well with this amp/tuner. Maybe the Thetis developers can find a workaround.

Rick
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Mar 05, 2022 3:17 pm

It's a conceptually easy mod for Thetis. Put a checkbox under the existing "Allow Kenwood AI Command" option labelled "Process Kenwood MD6 as FM for ACOM".

One wonders if there might not be a better way. There are still some things that might be problematic. It takes the software a relatively long time to switch from SSB to FM. Will that transition be fast enough? And when FM mode is selected CTCSS better be OFF, that's not something handled by the CAT coming from the ACOM.

At some point we have to remember that these are two very different radios. The AFSK approach taken in Thetis is very flexible and works with wide variety of software. And Thetis does have a twin passband filter implemented for RTTY, the somewhat unfortunately named "Dolly filter", sadly hidden away in Setup > DSP > Audio. Worse, there is no main UI control or even a CAT command to turn that filter on and off, something that I think RTTY aficionados would have clamored for a long time ago. It make you wonder how many ANAN users are operating RTTY these days, or if they even know the filter is there.
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby K8EZB » Sat Mar 05, 2022 3:29 pm

One wonders if there might not be a better way.


Yes. Using FM mode is a bit of a kluge but it works, and so far, without apparent switching time issues.

Without documented knowledge of what invoking a TUN on the AL7K does (appears to produce a carrier only and it does work for a manual tune of the ACOM amp) it would seem that using this command along with the "set TUN power" command would be a better way. Thetis would have to make an appropriate translation of the ACOM amp CAT commands to do this; not sure how feasible this is.

Rick
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby Joe-W4WT » Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:12 am

If Acom would just do a carve out for the Anan as they have done for others, it is super simple; only two different commands required:

PC; Read the current "power" (drive) level and save it
PC013; Set power to 13
ZZTU1; Set Tune ON
PC026; Set power to 26
PC039; Set power to 39
ZZTU0; Set Tune OFF
PCxxx; Set the "power" (drive) level back to what you saved from the first command

No need to worry about microphone settings, mode settings, etc. It just works and is much simpler than that mess they are doing.

Done.

Joe
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby K8EZB » Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:31 am

No need to worry about microphone settings, mode settings, etc. It just works and is much simpler than that mess they are doing.


Yep. I figured this out too. The hard part is getting ACOM to do it.

Seems to me this could be done in Thetis along the lines Scott suggested above.

Rick
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:54 am

I definitely didn't suggest that! I just suggested a band-aid option to muck with the meaning of MD6. It would be ridiculous to try to translate all the Kenwood commands into the relevant ZZ style commands. At that point you need to go to the source (Acom) and get them to legitimately support the radio as Joe suggests.

You could remind Acom this will work for the entire installed base of Flex PowerSDR users, not just Apache hardware users and Thetis. It might also work for SmartSDR Flex users, but I'm not sure, you'd have to research SmartSDR CAT commands. But it that was the case then that might just do the trick, since Flex is a very large userbase.
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:02 am

One other option: does the Acom stuff respond to any sort of CAT commands? If so, then turn the problem on its head and control the amp and tuner. I developed macros do this exactly with my Elecraft amp and MFJ tuner.

One of my more lengthy macros I call "Full Re-tune". I hit that macro button and it automatically:

Sets tune power to 15
Sets amp to standby
Cycles power on tuner to cause it to not tune from memory
Asserts TUN

I have to watch the tuning progress progress because the MFJ remote tuner doesn't have a way to tell me it's done. Then I hit the same macro button again and it:

Stops TUN
Sets amp to operate
Sets tune power to 3 (just in case I want to use the TUN button with the amp in operate)

You can do this with Stream Deck, DDUTil, Node-Red, and probably a half dozen other macro type app's. I was doing it with DDUtil, but now I'm doing it with Node-Red.
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby K8EZB » Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:11 am

does the Acom stuff respond to any sort of CAT commands?


Yes, it must. But, I know of no published information on this topic. Getting info from ACOM is not quite mission impossible but seems close.

I have reminded them more than once that the amateur radio world is going to Apache Labs and other SDR radios and that they would open a humongous (well ... maybe not that large) market if they were proactive in supporting these radios. They don't seem to be impressed.

Rick
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:19 pm

I took a casual look at the SmartSDR CAT reference. Flex has the same problem with MD. Does ACOM care about Flex?
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby K8EZB » Sun Mar 06, 2022 5:07 pm

Does ACOM care about Flex?


Don't really know, but apparently not. This would be so easy for them. A check box in the amp/tuner setup pages that turns AL7K CAT on or off for the TUNE function. It appears that the actual CAT commands differ in only 2-3 commands. Piece of cake! I have this morning made another appeal to ACOM via email to deal with this but am not optimistic. As an inducement to them I offered your expert advice on designing and testing this capability! :D

Rick
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Re: Acom 1200S /Acom 04AT tuner + Thetis

Postby feedbak » Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:25 am

Hello all
I got a message today from ACOM. They say, It is in the todo list. They are sorry to not update it before. they say it's an easy job . (of course). then we have to wait a little bit
René
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