VK-JOE's 100D questions

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w-u-2-o
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Re: GitHub software contributors "welcome pack" ?

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:09 pm

VK-JOE wrote:Do you still have the 100D?

Yes. In fact recently I spent several weeks using it in lieu of my 8000DLE because the 8000 needed repair.

I have been using the "loan" 100D I have - I can’t fault it - has very sensitive receiver - is there a review somewhere on the improvements in "performance” a 7000DLE MK II has over the 100D? - ignoring ascetics and jumper conveniences of cause.

In terms of receiver performance there is almost no practical difference between any of the 16-bit models from the Hermes to the Andromeda. The receiver schematics are nearly identical, and literally are identical in every important way. The minor differences in board layout do very slightly affect the noise floor and phase noise performance. You can measure a few dB here or there on the test bench, but since normal band noise far outweighs internal noise sources these things are mostly undetectable in normal operation. The one major difference that occurred with the advent of the first Orion MKII board in the first version of the 7000 was a change from a 20dB gain ADC LNA to an LNA in the same parts series but with 14dB gain. That definitely helped the ultimate noise floor by 2 or 3dB, but again it takes very good band conditions to notice this.

Obviously the 14-bit receivers (10E, 100B) do not perform as well, but your 100D is not in that category.

On the transmit side again certain improvements were made that increased TX noise and phase noise performance. This is harder to notice, obviously, especially after your signal has gone across any part of the ionosphere. However it is particularly helpful at low drive levels. More specifically, prior to the Orion MKII, the drive level was controlled exclusively by varying the reference voltage of the DAC. Now the output of the DAC goes to a step attenuator with implements gross drive control, with fine steps still being accomplished by varying the DAC reference voltage. This allows the DAC output to remain at a much higher SNR.

The biggest, and quite significant, difference between the 100D and succeeding models (200D and up), involves PureSignal performance. The original 100D, with either the Rev. 15 or 16 RF board, did not use an internal coupler for PureSignal feedback. Instead the internal crosstalk performance during full duplex operations was so bad that the crosstalk itself was used to implement PureSignal feedback! When an external coupler was used for PureSignal, feedback-to-crosstalk levels were still quite bad internally, resulting in less than optimum PureSignal performance. Many of us, myself included, modified our 100D units to use a high quality external RF switch to solve this problem. See also: http://www.w1aex.com/anan/anan.html#relay
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VK-JOE's 100D questions

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Oct 14, 2022 12:30 pm

Copying Joe's post here...

w-u-2-o wrote:The original 100D, with either the Rev. 15 or 16 RF board, did not use an internal coupler for PureSignal feedback. Instead the internal crosstalk performance during full duplex operations was so bad that the crosstalk itself was used to implement PureSignal feedback! When an external coupler was used for PureSignal, feedback-to-crosstalk levels were still quite bad internally, resulting in less than optimum PureSignal performance. Many of us, myself included, modified our 100D units to use a high quality external RF switch to solve this problem. See also: http://www.w1aex.com/anan/anan.html#relay

Scott, is there an easy way to determine the 100D revision for the RF board?
Just curious if the loan 100D I have is one of these units.

I also was wondering if there are any significant improvements if a GPSDO 10MHz external reference is used in the TX chain and PS2?
So far, I have managed to “tune” my audio chain with what I consider good PS2 functionality.

My audio chain is just hitting below 0dB ALC - so does not trigger PS2 correction(s) - only occasionally when peaking above the 0dB level.

I don’t use external amplifier – and can operate PS2 successfully with RF power as low as 2W all the way to 100W – so perhaps the “crosstalk” in the RF chain is just perfect level (with the auto attenuation) in the 100D I have?

The 100D I have seems to be on frequency - spot on - in fact, which is very surprising for an old unit which was sitting in a cupboard of the owner for quite a few years.

I also noted - that there is a dreaded "jumper" which needs to be set for the EXT 10MHz clock to function.

As you probably know - it’s not easy to access this - and requires the removal (well, "slide out") of the Angelia board - something I rather not do - because it’s not necessary if experimenting only - hence the question if performance - other than the obvious "on frequency" improvement - exists with a GPSDO reference clock in any other aspects of the signal processing chain?

Not sure at this stage if critical timing requirements are taking place?
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Re: VK-JOE's 100D questions

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Oct 14, 2022 12:50 pm

VK-JOE wrote:Scott, is there an easy way to determine the 100D revision for the RF board? Just curious if the loan 100D I have is one of these units.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2387

I also was wondering if there are any significant improvements if a GPSDO 10MHz external reference is used in the TX chain and PS2?
So far, I have managed to “tune” my audio chain with what I consider good PS2 functionality.
Frequency accuracy has no bearing on PureSignal performance.

My audio chain is just hitting below 0dB ALC - so does not trigger PS2 correction(s) - only occasionally when peaking above the 0dB level.
Forgive me, but that's dumb. Adjust it properly, use PureSignal.

I don’t use external amplifier – and can operate PS2 successfully with RF power as low as 2W all the way to 100W – so perhaps the “crosstalk” in the RF chain is just perfect level (with the auto attenuation) in the 100D I have?
It's not perfect, but it works.

The 100D I have seems to be on frequency - spot on - in fact, which is very surprising for an old unit which was sitting in a cupboard of the owner for quite a few years.
Not at all. Crystal aging is of little consequence, particularly if the unit, while old, has very few operational hours on it. Study up on the design of TCXO's.

I also noted - that there is a dreaded "jumper" which needs to be set for the EXT 10MHz clock to function.

As you probably know - it’s not easy to access this - and requires the removal (well, "slide out") of the Angelia board - something I rather not do - because it’s not necessary if experimenting only - hence the question if performance - other than the obvious "on frequency" improvement - exists with a GPSDO reference clock in any other aspects of the signal processing chain?
Phase noise performance of the radio will follow the phase noise performance of the 10MHz reference in use. Use one that is better or worse than the internal TCXO and you get corresponding performance. The internal TCXO is quite good where phase noise is concerned. The most useful application of the external 10MHz feature is to more easily achieve excellent frequency accuracy and stability with a GPSDO. See this topic: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2499

Not sure at this stage if critical timing requirements are taking place?
None are associated with the 10MHz reference, internal or external.
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Re: VK-JOE's 100D questions

Postby w-u-2-o » Tue Oct 25, 2022 2:56 pm

Joe,

I found some old posts that appear to show the same audio behavior you are seeing. I merged them together into their own topic here:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4384&p=22228#p22228

Return to “Everything Else: Antennas, Relays, Switches, Power, Grounding, Cooling, etc.”