Dedicated Ethernet Card

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KA5KKT
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Dedicated Ethernet Card

Postby KA5KKT » Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:43 pm

I'm currently running my Black 7000 via Windows through an external 1 gig router/modem.

Are there advantages to installing a 1 gig dedicated PCIe card to my computer for the use of the rig? Should any consideration be given to a card faster than 1 gig card? ...two port card..?


Kind regards,
Dick - KA5KKT

Struggling but maintaining...so far.
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Tony EI7BMB
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Re: Dedicated Eathernet Card

Postby Tony EI7BMB » Sat Apr 02, 2022 3:05 pm

Some good info on this topic by Rob here http://www.w1aex.com/anan/anan.html#network
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Dedicated Ethernet Card

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Apr 02, 2022 3:18 pm

In my experience there is every reason to do this, and only one reason not to.

First the reason not to: if you wish to access the ANAN from more than one PC it can be convenient to have it on the main network.

That said, in my experience provisioning a dedicated Ethernet port for a direct connection to the ANAN has proven to improve performance and stability to a high degree. This is especially important if you use VAC audio.

For a long time I resisted provisioning a dedicated port. My ANAN is in the basement radio rack, my PC is in a second floor studio/office. It was enough work just to run a single Ethernet cable from both locations to my main switch. But, finally, I did run another Ethernet cable, and I have to say the difference in performance was significant:

- Seq errors completely went away
- Other processes no longer caused audio artifacts on VAC audio (in particular browsers loading web pages)
- Overall operation just seemed more "solid" (obviously not a measurable characteristic)

One of the great advantages of having a dedicated Ethernet interface is that you can disable all of the protocols you don't need on that specific port. I've got just two enabled:

Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (65.31 KiB) Viewed 11630 times


Another great advantage is that you can tailor the interface advanced settings for maximum performance:

Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (78.52 KiB) Viewed 11630 times


With the stuff you don't need disabled, advanced settings tailored (usually just a couple of small changes), and all the "normal" traffic being handled by the other Ethernet interface, everything seems to just work better.

A faster than GigE card is not necessary. However, if you plan on a fancy 2.5 or 5Gbe uplink to a NAS or something, by all means get one as long as it will auto-negotiate to 1Gbe for the ANAN on the ANAN port.

A few more tips if you do this:

1. Definitely set up static IP addresses on the second Ethernet interface and the ANAN. This makes the connection to the ANAN instant, there is no waiting for an APIPA address to sort itself out. This must be on a different subnet than the main interface. E.g. if the main interface is using 192.168.1.x the ANAN interface and the ANAN must use 192.168.2.x.

2. Make sure the network metric settings on the two interfaces favor the ANAN interface (smaller metric value on the ANAN interface). This might slow down web browsing a tiny bit, but again every advantage you give the ANAN interface helps.

3. Get a dual port NIC and, if possible, go into the BIOS and disable the motherboard NIC. On some computers this is impossible, on others it is mandatory. Best to play it safe and not have the motherboard NIC possibly interfering with things.

4. Be wary of crappy cards. There's really no way to know, but these things are all so cheap that it is possible to get bad/counterfeit product. My first dual NIC card had a bad port that would act up occasionally. If things are not working reliably strongly consider another card before blaming yourself or your setup.
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KA5KKT
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Re: Dedicated Eathernet Card

Postby KA5KKT » Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:00 pm

Thanks for the great answers, Tony and Scott.

Like so much of the internet it is always good to read what directly applies rather than searching and reading a whole lot of what does not apply and trying to sort out what does apply.

I'll likely add an internal card. In searching I'm finding few that are over 1 gig speed and dual (or more) port. I see indications of 2.5GbE. I wonder if that is the overall capacity of the card with all ports in play.

In all, thanks again...among the easier understood replies (for me) in this forum.

Dick - KA5KKT
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Dedicated Eathernet Card

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:02 pm

KA5KKT wrote:In searching I'm finding few that are over 1 gig speed and dual (or more) port. I see indications of 2.5GbE. I wonder if that is the overall capacity of the card with all ports in play.

Dick--your search fu is weak ;) There's a great many dual NIC GigE cards. Don't pay more than $50.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=1gbe+dual+nic
w9mdb
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Re: Dedicated Eathernet Card

Postby w9mdb » Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:09 pm

More specifically here's the one Scott is using and says works wonderfully for him...
XXXX see Scott's post on the correct one to get

I ordered one.
Last edited by w9mdb on Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dedicated Eathernet Card

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:34 pm

w9mdb wrote:More specifically here's the one Scott is using and says works wonderfully for him...
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01C5 ... UTF8&psc=1

I ordered one.

That one was the one that proved bad for me, but it might have just been that one example.

I've since replaced it with this one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07VXS49MG
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Re: Dedicated Eathernet Card

Postby W4WMT » Sat Apr 02, 2022 5:05 pm

Why do you enable TCP/IP on the radio-dedicated NIC?
Don't we use UDP/IP only?
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Re: Dedicated Eathernet Card

Postby w9mdb » Sat Apr 02, 2022 5:08 pm

The TCP stack provides UDP.
It's not a separate selection.
No harm since TCP won't even wake up unless it's used.
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Re: Dedicated Eathernet Card

Postby W4WMT » Sat Apr 02, 2022 5:11 pm

w9mdb wrote:The TCP stack provides UDP.

Well, you learn something every day, don't you :-)
Thanks!
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Re: Dedicated Eathernet Card

Postby w9mdb » Sat Apr 02, 2022 5:21 pm

And a couple other things of interest from my networking history....

UDP -- popularly referred to as "Unreliable Data Protocol" as it has nothing in the way of error checking, flow control, sequencing, Really only works well over a 100% reliable local network connection. Basically as Scott pointed out even sharing the traffic with other things on your local net can cause problems.

TCP -- contrary to what many think TCP is not a "guaranteed" protocol. Much more reliable than UDP but many are not familiar with the OSI 7-layer model where TCP resides at layer 4 -- layer 7 is where "guarantee" can take place but requires your own layer on top of TCP. I worked with the banking industry where 100% guarantee is required. So if you imagine a transaction model where you send me banking transactions we would agree on a counter for example so you send me 1,2,3,4.... and I expect 1,2,3,4 and can tell you if one is missing to retransmit. TCP by itself does not deal with power failures, reboots, disconnects, and such where packets can get dropped. I had to argue that point with some banking software "experts" and actually had to get Bob Kahn on the phone to convince them TCP wasn't guaranteed.
https://www.imperva.com/learn/applicati ... osi-model/
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KA5KKT
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Re: Dedicated Eathernet Card

Postby KA5KKT » Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:18 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:In my experience there is every reason to do this, and only one reason not to.

First the reason not to: if you wish to access the ANAN from more than one PC it can be convenient to have it on the main network.

That said, in my experience provisioning a dedicated Ethernet port for a direct connection to the ANAN has proven to improve performance and stability to a high degree. This is especially important if you use VAC audio.

For a long time I resisted provisioning a dedicated port. My ANAN is in the basement radio rack, my PC is in a second floor studio/office. It was enough work just to run a single Ethernet cable from both locations to my main switch. But, finally, I did run another Ethernet cable, and I have to say the difference in performance was significant:

- Seq errors completely went away
- Other processes no longer caused audio artifacts on VAC audio (in particular browsers loading web pages)
- Overall operation just seemed more "solid" (obviously not a measurable characteristic)

One of the great advantages of having a dedicated Ethernet interface is that you can disable all of the protocols you don't need on that specific port. I've got just two enabled:

Capture.JPG

Another great advantage is that you can tailor the interface advanced settings for maximum performance:

Capture.JPG

With the stuff you don't need disabled, advanced settings tailored (usually just a couple of small changes), and all the "normal" traffic being handled by the other Ethernet interface, everything seems to just work better.

A faster than GigE card is not necessary. However, if you plan on a fancy 2.5 or 5Gbe uplink to a NAS or something, by all means get one as long as it will auto-negotiate to 1Gbe for the ANAN on the ANAN port.

A few more tips if you do this:

1. Definitely set up static IP addresses on the second Ethernet interface and the ANAN. This makes the connection to the ANAN instant, there is no waiting for an APIPA address to sort itself out. This must be on a different subnet than the main interface. E.g. if the main interface is using 192.168.1.x the ANAN interface and the ANAN must use 192.168.2.x.

2. Make sure the network metric settings on the two interfaces favor the ANAN interface (smaller metric value on the ANAN interface). This might slow down web browsing a tiny bit, but again every advantage you give the ANAN interface helps.

3. Get a dual port NIC and, if possible, go into the BIOS and disable the motherboard NIC. On some computers this is impossible, on others it is mandatory. Best to play it safe and not have the motherboard NIC possibly interfering with things.

4. Be wary of crappy cards. There's really no way to know, but these things are all so cheap that it is possible to get bad/counterfeit product. My first dual NIC card had a bad port that would act up occasionally. If things are not working reliably strongly consider another card before blaming yourself or your setup.



I obtained the dual port NIC as suggested above. I'm about to tackle the settings as were outlined. If using one the the ports for my general internet connection, should the port settings be the same as the old Mobo Port Settings? The one port is currently connected to my Router/Modem setup and seem to have defaulted to the same settings as the Mobo port.


As ever,
Dick - KA5KKT
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Re: Dedicated Eathernet Card

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:58 pm

KA5KKT wrote:I obtained the dual port NIC as suggested above. I'm about to tackle the settings as were outlined. If using one the the ports for my general internet connection, should the port settings be the same as the old Mobo Port Settings? The one port is currently connected to my Router/Modem setup and seem to have defaulted to the same settings as the Mobo port.
Why would you want it to be different? It has to be essentially the same in order for the internet and other normal Windows networking functions to work. If you've got a garden variety modem/router from your ISP then the interface has most of its settings made automatically via DHCP from the modem/router.

Be sure to disable the motherboard NIC, though. It's best if you can disable it in the BIOS, but at least disable it in Windows.
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Re: Dedicated Ethernet Card

Postby KA5KKT » Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:34 pm

I've installed the dual NIC card and disabled the Mobo Ethernet port. The internet is connecting fine, perhaps even better from port #1 on the card. I'm having trouble getting Anan - Thetis configured properly. The errors I'm getting indicate...

"Radio Ethernet Properties" doesn't have a valid IP configuration
Error Starting SDR hardware, is it connected and powered?

I've lost track of where I was able to change the IP address for the Anan.

Network setting shows as 192 168 30 100.
Anan shows as 192 168 2 111.

Yes...no, I don't know what I'm doing.


As usual,
Dick - KA5KKT

https://imgur.com/a/tq591ck
w9mdb
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Re: Dedicated Ethernet Card

Postby w9mdb » Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:43 pm

The ANAN needs a 192.168.30.X address -- that will be on the same subnet.
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Re: Dedicated Ethernet Card

Postby KA5KKT » Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:56 pm

w9mdb wrote:The ANAN needs a 192.168.30.X address -- that will be on the same subnet.


Right. And where / how is it that I instill that into the system...that's what I've lost track of.


Thank you for the reply,
Dick
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Re: Dedicated Ethernet Card

Postby KA5KKT » Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:10 pm

KA5KKT wrote:
w9mdb wrote:The ANAN needs a 192.168.30.X address -- that will be on the same subnet.


Right. And where / how is it that I instill that into the system...that's what I've lost track of.


Thank you for the reply,
Dick


Somehow I got back to where the Anan number matches the 192 168 30 X address. The Network error message I now get is...
Error starting SDR hardware, is it connected and powered? (yes) Perhaps I need to change the X portion (now set at 100) to something other.

Thanks for your patience.
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Re: Dedicated Ethernet Card

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Apr 22, 2022 2:57 am

Dick,

Do not think that Thetis or PowerSDR can set the address of the ANAN. That is a red herring. Those settings are for working with multiple ANANs on the same network, they do not set the address of the ANAN.

In order to get your second port working you MUST follow the directions that Rob, W1AEX, has laboriously described for you here:

http://www.w1aex.com/anan/anan.html#network

You want to follow the directions for CONNECTION OPTION TWO.

If you are running Protocol 1 firmware those directions are OK as is.

If you are running Protocol 2 firmware then STEP 2 must be changed to use HPSDR Bootloader.

Are you running Protocol 1 or Protocol 2 firmware?

If you are running Protocol 2 firmware do you know how to use Bootloader?


73,

Scott
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Re: Dedicated Ethernet Card

Postby w9mdb » Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:24 pm

I replaced my ethernet connection from the ANAN to the switch with fiber optic. With the original ethernet cable I could measure 2V of RFI on the USB cable shield. After replacing the ether cable with the following fiber optic system the RFI on the USB cable shield dropped from 2V to 0.2V.
Next step is to put this fiber optic on a dedicated ethernet port.

Need two 1-foot patch cables
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B081Q ... UTF8&psc=1

And these which adapts ethernet to SFP to LC
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B099J ... UTF8&psc=1

And then an appropriate length LC-LC fiber cable.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078T ... =UTF8&th=1
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Re: Dedicated Ethernet Card

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:48 pm

w9mdb wrote:I replaced my ethernet connection from the ANAN to the switch with fiber optic. With the original ethernet cable I could measure 2V of RFI on the USB cable shield. After replacing the ether cable with the following fiber optic system the RFI on the USB cable shield dropped from 2V to 0.2V.

Do you mean Ethernet cable shield or USB?

If USB, what is the USB cable for?

And, all that said, were you actually experiencing any real problems from this, or are you just playing it safe?

I have about 2000 feet of unshielded CAT 5 Ethernet cable running all over my house and don't experience any trouble at all. 1500W. The 10-40M antenna is about 50ft away and about 60ft up. The 80/160M inverted L is fed right off of the corner of the house.

Note that this is pretty severe thread drift. If this turns into a protracted discussion we should start another, separate topic about fiber connections.
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Re: Dedicated Ethernet Card

Postby w9mdb » Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:57 pm

I have about a dozen USB devices and have been measuring RFI on all the different devices and have had RFI problems at times when plugging in new USB devices. The other day 10Mhz started making my keyboard and mouse lose power due to the RFI on the USB cable.
I'm starting a campaign to get manufacturers to stop grounding things that don't need grounding.
#1 USB connectors on devices are ground to pin 4 on the cable and to the chassis. Pin 4 should NOT be grounded like this. All 12V common lines should be isolated.
#2 Power supplies commonly do the same and ground common to the chassis. I've found one power supply that does NOT do that....Samtex.

This thread got me going on the dedicated ethernet card but I decided to try the fiber optic to isolate the rig's ethernet shield from the switch and all the other ethernet devices. I had CAT6 on it but presumably the ethernet cable was still picking up the RFI and acting as a transmit antenna.

Going to run this for a while and see if some of the bad audio behavior goes away -- but still plan on a dedicated ethernet card. Was considering a fiber optic card too for the computer but I already have the 2nd ethernet card to test.
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Re: Dedicated Ethernet Card

Postby Joe-W4WT » Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:11 pm

Mike, you might want to check your USB cables for ground continuity from end to end. I found several of my USB cables that had multiple ohms of resistance from the ground end of one end to the other. This can certainly cause RF problems.

73,

Joe W4WT
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Re: Dedicated Ethernet Card

Postby rbduck » Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:23 pm

This subject has opened a discussion of something I'm very interested in. Why? The never ending search for stability in VAC. I had run upon a series of tweaks that can be done on the dedicated NIC for an Anan. Scott. I'm interested in your views and experience with this. I have performed the tweaks myself. I can't tell any difference in stability of communication between the PC and radio. Then again, I was really having no issues with stability in communication between the PC and Anan 7000DLE to begin with. I also couldn't tell any difference in stability in VAC. This may not even have any relation to VAC stability.

I ran across these NIC tweaks in an article located here.
https://helpdesk.flexradio.com/hc/en-us/articles/202118518-Optimizing-Ethernet-Adapter-Settings-for-Maximum-Performance

As with any tweak or modification of this type be very careful and write your original settings down before making any changes as it may not work as expected and Your Mileage May Vary. If you particular NIC doesn't like a setting you chose it may become unstable.
73
Ruben
NB4R
Apache-Labs Anan 7000DLE MKII Black -- Thetis 2.10.3.6 dev_2 -- Windows 11
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Re: Dedicated Ethernet Card

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:53 pm


Ah, yes, that old chestnut. Every so often someone rediscovers it. Or they start reading gamer websites about how to maximize game performance.

Cutting and pasting from one of my old posts:

I don't agree with all those settings, but it's a pretty good list, nonetheless. I'd leave buffer sizes at stock settings and, unless your CPU is very highly utilized, leave all offloading settings turned on. However any differences should be quite minimal either way.

Another thing that I've had good results with, if you have a dedicated NIC that is only connected to the ANAN, is to go into the properties for that dedicated, single purpose NIC adapter and turn off ALL services EXCEPT for IP4 and PCAP. You could even turn off PCAP (if installed) but then Bootloader won't work when you need it.

The problem is that many, or even most, of these "magic" or "critical" settings tend to be highly NIC specific. I've run afoul of that issue myself. You can find my post on here where I got all excited about turning off interrupt moderation only to find that it made absolutely no difference when I got a new NIC.

So all you can do is experiment for yourself to see what your NIC likes for settings. Certainly investigate other ideas, but what works for one might not work for the other.

When you are experimenting, the gold standard is a tool called iPerf. With iPerf you will get much more objective, easier to understand results. To really make this work well the iPerf server must exist on a fast machine. You can't expect grandma's old laptop to be able to hit 900+Mbit/s with the USB2 Ethernet dongle, you know what I mean? ;)

Another good tool is Tamosoft Throughput Test. It's a little sexier than iPerf. Again, you must host the other side on a machine you trust to be able to do as well or better than the machine under test.

I host my iPerf server on my NAS, which is connected to my network by a bonded pair of 1Gig ports. It has no problem proving out my other machines, I've hit rates as high as 950Mbit/s on my shack PC.


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rbduck
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Re: Dedicated Ethernet Card

Postby rbduck » Sat Apr 23, 2022 2:27 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:You can't expect grandma's old laptop to be able to hit 900+Mbit/s with the USB2 Ethernet dongle, you know what I mean? ;)



The big question is: How'd you know my wife (grandma) had an OLD LAPTOP?

This is kind of what I thought. Since I saw no issues up front I went back and reset everything to default except for the changes you suggested. Somewhere down the road I'd have an unexpected issue and would have completely forgot I had made changes to the NIC. I did have a previous dual port NIC that was flaky to begin with. I tried some of these changes and it didn't like any of them. Any change at all and it would completely quit working. The one I have now (I forget the brand) has been working well. I had also forgot those other tweaks existed until this topic popped up. I thought I'd just try them on this NIC. I knew there were tools , but had no experience with any of them.

Being retired now I'm constantly experimenting with different things. Both with the radio and. That's why I'm not reporting a lot of issues I have. I am normally creating my own problems.
73
Ruben
NB4R
Apache-Labs Anan 7000DLE MKII Black -- Thetis 2.10.3.6 dev_2 -- Windows 11

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