Remote operation

Plantarum
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Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2022 3:20 pm

Remote operation

Postby Plantarum » Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:43 am

Good day to you all,

I have pre ordered the new 8000. I work on a ship 14 days a month and although I have a radio there, the antenna is a 28ft vertical and when passing low bridges it has to stay down.
At home I have a very nice beam and the idea is to use the Anan for remote operation when I am away (as well as using it at home of course). It has ample output, saving me the trouble of running an amp remote too.
So,.... reading this part of the forum doesn't make me particulary happy. It seems a real struggle to get this working and I wonder if any of you has pulled this off at all. With this I mean: Establish a reliable remote connection with the radio via internet.

I plan to connect the radio to a dedicated computer at home. This will be connected to a fibre glass internet connection (400Mb/s).
On the ship we have an unlimited 4G wireless internet connection that is pretty reliable.

My idea was to use remote desktop to operate the computer running at home and so operating the Anan, but reading others, that turns out to be more complicated than that. I am open to other suggestions.


Could anybody tell me if it is at all possible to do what I want and establish a good workable situation, or will it be a bunch of trouble and continuous annoyment?

I know there is no plug and play solution. I don't mind a challenge. Just need to know whether I should go ahaid or cancel the order and look for something else.

With kind regards,

Hubert
w4bf
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Re: Remote operation

Postby w4bf » Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:09 pm

Use the remotehams.com and their app for android called RCForb. Or you can run it on your PC on the ship.

No monthly fees. You configure it as a "FLEX" radio since interface is the same.

Not exactly plug and play but setup is not all that difficult - you can PM me with any questions.

No fancy spectrum display on the android, but if you want to just listen, you can bring up your computer with teamview/chrome remote and see your complete home computer screen.
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Remote operation

Postby w-u-2-o » Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:20 pm

In my experience it is very difficult to get a reliable remote connection to any radio over 4G cellular. And, if you do get it running, the user experience is not anything like being in front of the radio itself. This becomes many times more complex with a thick client architecture SDR like our radios.

It's all a question of creating the necessary bandwidth between your operating point and the radio. CAT control including PTT signaling takes almost no bandwidth. And audio bandwidth requirements are pretty low. But start adding in video data to show a panadapter and waterfall display and now you are talking about some real bandwidth. For all of that you need somewhere between 1 and 2 Mbit/s consistently, and with reasonably low latency. That doesn't sound like a lot, but it is hard to get that consistently using 4G when underway.

I used to do this with a combination of the RCForb client and server software (https://www.remotehams.com/) and Microsoft Remote Desktop (RDP). And that was with the smallest possible window size on Thetis and a panadapter update rate of 10Hz. Setup was complex. It did run over 4G connections but it had about a 1 second latency which causes a lot of doubles during multi-way rag chews and can make it hard to break in. But this was operating from a stable location. If you are on a moving ship with continually changing cellular conditions you are likely to be disappointed.

Even using a Flex radio, which arguably has the most advanced remote operating capability, is likely to be an unfulfilling experience under moving 4G link conditions.

If you want to push on this hard, I'd suggest starting with an RCForb audio/CAT only setup first and see how that works for you. If that works OK, then add some sort of remote screen sharing software in parallel to see if you can also get panadapter data. RDP is undoubtedly the fastest choice. I've heard good things about software called "nomachine" but could never get it to work for me.

Don't forget you will want to protect this all over VPN, and you will want some way to remotely reboot the remote PC and to remotely cycle power on the radio just in case something goes funny, as it always does when you are hundreds of miles away and CPUs are involved.
Plantarum
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Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2022 3:20 pm

Re: Remote operation

Postby Plantarum » Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:28 pm

OK,

Thank you for the replies.
Well, if the problem is the 4G, I can live with that. As long as it is not the radio. I can not change 4G, so if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
Anyway, from the answers, I figure that remote control from a land based remote location should be doable.
In that case, at least a friend can use the station while I am away,.....

Best wishes,

Hubert
rdwing
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat May 21, 2022 2:05 am

Re: Remote operation

Postby rdwing » Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:28 pm

Unfortunately there are a lot of compromises to be made trying to get remote operation working with the Anan radios. Best to buy a Flex, seems like it might be a better fit. I have both and the Flex works great even over cellular.

The Anan's require around 50 Mbps constant data 24/7 the entire time the radio is connected to a computer. By comparison, the Flex, requires no more than 3 Mbps for the full experience.
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Remote operation

Postby w-u-2-o » Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:16 pm

If you are using RCforb and RDP it's less than 3Mbit/s. Actually running Thetis over the internet is impossible.
ea3aqr
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Re: Remote operation

Postby ea3aqr » Wed Aug 31, 2022 7:46 am

Well... it really depends on your connection speed and latency.

I regulary use my Anan over the internet (200km away from my QTH) without issues 99% of the time. I was living at my remote location for more than one year during the pandemics and I was using my Anan radio remotely on a daily basis.

I have to say that I have a 600mbps full duplex fiber connection at home and 300mbps at the remote location. My latencies are arround 25ms, so it runs fine with ringbuffers set on AUTO with no under/overflows.

I have set my sample rate at 384000 with pure signal off and my bandwith use is arround 20mbps. Pure signal doubles the bandwith you need and sometimes runs unstable.

I just use a VPN to connect to my home QTH lan and I can run Thetis and my rotator and amplifier control software at the remote site.

EDIT: corrected the sample rate
Last edited by ea3aqr on Wed Aug 31, 2022 4:13 pm, edited 5 times in total.
New call sign EA3CL
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Remote operation

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:31 am

ea3aqr wrote:Well... it really depends on your conexion speed and latency.

Your situation is:

a) quite unusual in both speed and quality

b) accepting of significant performance limitations for IF bandwidth, audio latency and no PureSignal
ea3aqr
Posts: 270
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Re: Remote operation

Postby ea3aqr » Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:15 am

Just minor issues compared with no radio at all... ;)

I've corrected the sample rate in my previous post, it was wrong, I'm really using 384000, the same that I'm using locally right now.

Talking about PS, I set it up manually on every band, a little bit anoying, but still quite clean signal.

And yes, I have lots of latency compared to my local setup, but 100% usable. I can break pile-ups easily.

It is not perfect, but very good indeed!
Last edited by ea3aqr on Wed Aug 31, 2022 4:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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w9ac
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Re: Remote operation

Postby w9ac » Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:08 pm

ea3aqr wrote:I have to say that I have a 600mbps full duplex fiber conexion at home and 300mbps at the remote location. My latencies are arround 25ms, so it runs fine with ringbuffers set in AUTO with no under/overflows.

Is that a fiber-to-fiber connection on both ends of the link? I suspect you have few ISP handoffs between links.

When I run PingPlotter software, anywhere from 15-20 handoffs occur between my home QTH and a 4G/LTE remote site about 30 km away, with the greatest latency path on the last mile. If/when the remote site has access to true 5G ultra-wideband service, total latency should be cut in half.

Anyway, congrats on making that connection work with your ANAN.

Paul, W9AC
ea3aqr
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Re: Remote operation

Postby ea3aqr » Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:25 pm

w9ac wrote:
ea3aqr wrote:I have to say that I have a 600mbps full duplex fiber conexion at home and 300mbps at the remote location. My latencies are arround 25ms, so it runs fine with ringbuffers set in AUTO with no under/overflows.

Is that a fiber-to-fiber connection on both ends of the link? I suspect you have few ISP handoffs between links.

When I run PingPlotter software, anywhere from 15-20 handoffs occur between my home QTH and a 4G/LTE remote site about 30 km away, with the greatest latency path on the last mile. If/when the remote site has access to true 5G ultra-wideband service, total latency should be cut in half.

Anyway, congrats on making that connection work with your ANAN.

Paul, W9AC


Yes, That's a fiber-to-fiber connection.

Here you have a trace from my QTH to the remote internet provider site:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms mygpon [192.168.1.1]
2 * * * Tiempo de espera agotado para esta solicitud.
3 2 ms 2 ms 2 ms 10.183.73.17
4 * * 3 ms 172.29.104.97
5 * * * Tiempo de espera agotado para esta solicitud.
6 3 ms 3 ms 2 ms ae2-100-xcr1.bsb.cw.net [195.89.97.97]
7 12 ms 12 ms 13 ms ae6-xcr1.mtt.cw.net [195.2.2.174]
8 * * * Tiempo de espera agotado para esta solicitud.
9 13 ms 13 ms 13 ms be2470.ccr31.mad05.atlas.cogentco.com [130.117.0.205]
10 18 ms 18 ms 17 ms be2324.ccr31.bio02.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.61.129]
11 30 ms 30 ms 29 ms be3054.rcr71.bod01.atlas.cogentco.com [130.117.49.125]
12 33 ms 33 ms 33 ms be3007.rcr01.tls01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.36.70]
13 26 ms 26 ms 26 ms 149.11.58.146
14 * * * Tiempo de espera agotado para esta solicitud.
15 * * * Tiempo de espera agotado para esta solicitud.
16 * * * Tiempo de espera agotado para esta solicitud.
17 * * * Tiempo de espera agotado para esta solicitud.
18 * * * Tiempo de espera agotado para esta solicitud.
19 26 ms 25 ms 26 ms http://www.andorratelecom.ad [194.158.64.40]

EDITED to add some pings:

Respuesta desde 194.158.64.40: bytes=32 tiempo=26ms TTL=46
Respuesta desde 194.158.64.40: bytes=32 tiempo=26ms TTL=46
Respuesta desde 194.158.64.40: bytes=32 tiempo=27ms TTL=46
Respuesta desde 194.158.64.40: bytes=32 tiempo=26ms TTL=46
Respuesta desde 194.158.64.40: bytes=32 tiempo=27ms TTL=46
Respuesta desde 194.158.64.40: bytes=32 tiempo=26ms TTL=46
Respuesta desde 194.158.64.40: bytes=32 tiempo=26ms TTL=46
Respuesta desde 194.158.64.40: bytes=32 tiempo=26ms TTL=46
Respuesta desde 194.158.64.40: bytes=32 tiempo=26ms TTL=46
Respuesta desde 194.158.64.40: bytes=32 tiempo=26ms TTL=46
Respuesta desde 194.158.64.40: bytes=32 tiempo=26ms TTL=46
Last edited by ea3aqr on Wed Aug 31, 2022 4:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
New call sign EA3CL
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w9ac
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Re: Remote operation

Postby w9ac » Wed Aug 31, 2022 3:39 pm

Wow, 25 ms through 19 connection hops. Amazing.

Paul, W9AC

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