Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

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JJ4SDR
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Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby JJ4SDR » Sun Mar 12, 2023 8:36 pm

Regardless of band, I am seeing a quick reduction of the background noise or noise floor whilst on receive. This may have nothing to do with the (hardware) ANAN 7000 DLE MKII that I purchased brand-new about 1.5 years ago. Not thinking that this is a Thetis issue as I have never observed this phenomenon before and I haven't really changed settings and even if that were the case, I am not sure what bad move I could have done, assuming that such a move would generate this sort of a phenomenon. Only seeing this during the past few weeks.

This reduction in the level of the noise floor may be traceable to the amplifier that I am using since there are other users of the amp who are reporting similar occurrences. On one occasion, the noise all but disappeared completely to the point that I thought I had no antenna connected.
The first amp alluded to I have owned for almost a year now.

I put another amplifier in the circuit last night and after I switched on the radio today, I see a similar drop in the noise floor (after a few minutes of monitoring), albeit the drop is not as dramatic as it was with the other amp. I then connected the radio straight to the same antenna that I had the radio+amp connected to just a minute previously and the noise floor was about the same (perhaps a little higher, but that doesn't necessary enter into the equation).

Would appreciate thoughts, avoiding the barking up of the wrong gear :) .

Juha
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Mar 12, 2023 8:43 pm

Has it always done this, or did the problem suddenly appear, or do you think it's always been there but you've never noticed it before?

If the problem suddenly appeared, what changed that might be a contributor? Did you move the ANAN to a place that was hotter or colder?

Is this something that could be associated with a thermal mechanism, say as the unit warms up? You write "<it drops> after a few minutes of monitoring". This is not "abrupt" as your title specifies. Is the internal fan working? Is it clogged up with dust? Has the overall temperature around the ANAN changed in anyway? What happens if you put an additional cooling fan on the unit?
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby JJ4SDR » Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:02 pm

Scott,

I would have noticed such a drop and never did.

The ANAN has been in the same spot for as long as I have owned it.

By "abrupt" I mean that when the floor does drop it is "abrupt." Have not looked inside the ANAN, but I have had an external NOCTUA muffin fan on top of the chassis for a long time and the chassis feels cool to the touch. I doubt it this has anything to do with a clog, but I guess that can be ruled out if I take a peek inside. Internal fan is working.

Juha
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:25 pm

OK, probably not thermal.

How about a bad relay? Have you tried some of the other antenna inputs, or the second ADC input?
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby JJ4SDR » Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:31 am

Scott,

Negative on both of your suggestions. Haven't.

"Second ADC input?"

Juha
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby w-u-2-o » Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:04 am

On your ANAN it might be labeled RX2. Apache has labeled it differently over the years.

You might try some of those tests.
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby JJ4SDR » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:59 am

It is labeled RX2. Should have gotten it :lol: .

Thanks Scott. IF using RX2 or changing to another ANT port fixes it then I might need to ship the radio to Doug for in-warranty repair. However, before drawing any conclusions I will need to really do my due diligence.

Juha
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby SM3PZG » Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:56 am

Try connecting another receiver to the circuit or different antenna. I had a similar problem some years ago. RX would suddenly drop. A short TX brought RX back. It was a bad connector on the antenna feedline.
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby JJ4SDR » Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:49 pm

Before switching to ANT 2 port, I had the ANAN on receive (ANT 1 port) for more than 2 hours today, starting in the morning, with the noise dropping quickly (after about 2-3 minutes of monitoring) and then climbing back to "normal."

Still on ANT 1, after about 1.5 hours of monitoring, the noise floor dropped again to about the same extent that it did after about 2-3 minutes of monitoring in the morning. Again, the internal fan works well and I always have the NOCTUA external muffin fan on top of the chassis on too with the chassis remaining cool to the touch.

Whether the antenna (same antenna that can be used on 4 different bands) is connected to either ANT 1 or ANT 2 on the ANAN makes no difference. The noise-floor is the same between the 2 ANT ports (on 3 of the 4 bands that the antenna works on, I didn't try the 4th band as observing the phenomenon on 3 bands was sufficient). I also took the amp out of the circuit and did the same tests with no change. So, it would seem that the issue isn't my amp but the ANAN. Will continue experimenting, using a completely different antenna and band.

Juha
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Last edited by JJ4SDR on Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby JJ4SDR » Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:13 pm

SM3PZG wrote:Try connecting another receiver to the circuit or different antenna. I had a similar problem some years ago. RX would suddenly drop. A short TX brought RX back. It was a bad connector on the antenna feedline.


Will try another receiver as well. Have a Kenwood TS-950 SDX for that test.

Juha
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby w-u-2-o » Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:46 pm

And try the RX2 connector on the ANAN.
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby JJ4SDR » Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:19 pm

Noise-floor pretty steady when using Kenwood TS-950SDX.

Tried RX2 connector too, but it is tricky as the drop-outs seem intermittent for the most part. Used the same band and antenna on RX2/ANT1. Steady noise-floor for 2 hours, no changes. When I went back to "normal" operations with the same antenna connected to ANT 1, the noise was a few dBs lower than antenna connected to RX2 connector, but I don't think you can read much into that.

Juha
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby JJ4SDR » Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:53 pm

Communicating with Doug on this now.

What is the least "painful" way of RELOADING the current Thetis and Protocol 2 firmware that I am using? Yes, I know, this may seem like a really elementary question, but I don't want to get this wrong. Plus, I have several TX profiles that I spent months on, to get them to sound good (to my ear).

Juha
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:21 am

I thought you knew how to load firmware and had done it already?

The least painful way is to use Bootloader. Instructions here: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2333

With no "drop-outs" on the Kenwood or RX2 for two hours it sure seems like a hardware issue in the RX1 path.
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby JJ4SDR » Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:25 am

Scott,

"I knew" but it's been a while since I did it.

Sorry for posting this here. It belongs in firmware sub not here.

Juha
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby JJ4SDR » Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:28 pm

UPDATE:

Shipped radio to Doug.
Doug took the radio back to protocol 1 v2.7 (from P2 v2.1.18) and there were no differences in the noise floor or seq errors on transmit. Then he had it back at protocol 2 v2.1.18 (the version that I have been using for almost a year now if my memory serves), continuing the testing. The only noise floor bounces he saw was from atmospheric noise and affect both receivers equally.

Doug opined that “sometimes the firmware gets scrambled due to static or a big jolt of RF.”


I should be getting the radio back tomorrow, Wednesday.

In the mean-time, I have been using my Kenwood TS-950SDX with no issues for several days.

Juha
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:25 pm

So Doug was never able to duplicate your problem?
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby n2gq » Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:48 pm

I just installed the latest 2.9.08 meter thetis yesterday and while listening my receive dropped as well a quick keyup brought it back up. I did hear the relay switch when it happened. This is the first time this has happened. I have protcol 2 and a 7000del mkIII. I duplicated this by actually switching the ant selection and had the same drop in noise.

Jay n2gq
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby JJ4SDR » Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:27 pm

Scott,

Correct. Doug never got the radio to exhibit what I was hearing.

Just received the radio back from Doug.

Juha
PC: 8 Core i7-10700 CPU @ 2.90GHz, NVMe SK Hynix 512 GB SSD, 32GB RAM
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby JJ4SDR » Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:29 pm

Jay,

I am not sure how many others there might be who have observed what you did (on their MK III)?

Do you know what the hardware differences are between the MK II and MK III?

Juha
PC: 8 Core i7-10700 CPU @ 2.90GHz, NVMe SK Hynix 512 GB SSD, 32GB RAM
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:52 pm

All the versions of the 7000 from the original to the one that is shipping today are virtually identical. Leaving aside the chassis and the possible inclusion of a NUC computer or fancy front panel (Andromeda), the core components: SDR board, PA board, filter boards, are essentially identical. There are some minor BOM (bill of materials, aka parts list) changes on those circuit boards but they are functionally identical. The only major changes are

1. There are three revisions of the Orion MKxxx SDR board that use three different FPGAs (but the rest of the board is, again, essentially identical across all three revisions).
2. There are revisions of the PA board that use different current measurement ICs, the later ones being incompatible with Thetis.

If you are looking to identify something that might be different on your 7000 that might be responsible for your problems it seems unlikely you will find anything. That said, it's still a possibility, remote as it is, that something in the firmware revision that matches up with your FPGA might be buggy. However, if that were the case, then there would probably be a lot more reports of the same issue as yours.

One of the classic problems with the hardware design is its extensive reliance on relay switching. There have been many instances of bad relays over the years, although not usually on brand new units but only after the relays have had many thousands of switching cycles. If you look up the relay part numbers and data sheets you will see the relays are not rated for a huge number of mechanical cycles.
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby JJ4SDR » Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:03 pm

Scott,

Thank you as always.

Got the radio back just now and put it in its original place in the circuit and immediately observed a drop-off in the audio. Over time, it appears to be creeping up only to drop again as well. I did bring up a potential problem with the relay when communicating with Doug, but again, hard as he tried, he did not observe what I am seeing here.

I am clasping at straws here, but the 3 things that are different from the set-ups between using my "traditional" Kenwood TS-950SDX and the ANAN are:
1. Coaxial jumper between ANAN and the "outside world." The jumper is very rigid and it really should be ultra-flexible. It somehow doesn't feel tight on the female BNC on the back of the radio.
2. CAT 8 Ethernet cables + "dumb" Ethernet switch.
3. PC

Gently tugging/wiggling the jumper seemed to have caused changes in the noise-floor, but this may be a "phantom" observation and a false positive, but I will try replacing it any way.

Juha
PC: 8 Core i7-10700 CPU @ 2.90GHz, NVMe SK Hynix 512 GB SSD, 32GB RAM
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby W2PA » Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:10 pm

Juha,

FWIW, I've experienced a similar behavior and the cause turned out to be the same as mentioned here earlier by SM3PZG, a faulty coax jumper in my antenna switch arrangement.

The symptoms were similar but not identical. I'd notice a drop off in noise floor and receive sensitivity on first powering up the rig after being off for hours (e.g. overnight). A single PTT action usually brought it back to life so I suspected a relay problem. Nope, it was that jumper. I replaced it and it's never happened again in a year or so.
73,
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby Joe-W4WT » Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:44 pm

Juha, in my almost 60 years of Ham Radio with multiple towers, many antennas, and a LOT of transmission lines, a "desense" problem during receive that is "fixed" by momentarily keying the transmitter is ALWAYS a coax problem. Typically a coroded connector, loose connector, bad connector, and the infamous "bullet" (double female connector) failing. It usually only takes a couple of years in environments I've lived in for this problem to appear. You can usually spot it by unscrweing a coax connector and seeing a "white powder" on it. Also, if the connector has been outside and wasn't tightened using pliars, or equivalent, you may find it loose or very easy to unscrew. This is due to thermal cycling over time that loosens the connector and you end up with the desense problem.

I've had all these problems over the years until the last five or so when I started using Dow Corning 4 Electrical Insulationg Compound on ALL coax connectors before screwing them together (and using pliars to tighten the joint so you can't unscrew it by hand) and switching to crimp on PL-259's that I install myself. Since those changes I have not had a single instance of this problem anymore. I have friends that had this problem for years and after followng this regimen, they too have no more problems.

This doesn't mean it couldn't possibly be a relay, but the chances of that, in my opinion, are very low compared to a coax connector issue.

Just sayin',

Joe, W4WT
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby JJ4SDR » Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:11 pm

Joe,

I appreciate your observations based on experience. My ham radio career is almost 49 years long and I usually go overboard when it comes to both quality of connectors, connections, cables and the way they have been protected from moisture ingress when they are located outdoors. I am not "cheap."

Incidentally, I am not able to remedy the noise-floor issue by keying the radio although I see that this has often been helpful.

FWIW, on connections outdoors (I always apply a dollop of Dielectric Water Proofing Filler in the PL-259 so that when it is mated with the female connector the filler occupies any voids. At least, this is what I am hoping I achieve. This done, I apply self-fusing tape and for final measure electrical tape. And, yes, I also tighten (not over-tightening) connector with pliars. And, in many cases I also spray a coat of clear krylon on the mated spots in the coax.

The audio issue is observed regardless of band or antenna (I have 4 different antennas). So, even in the case of poor connections I don't believe ALL of them are sub-par. So, this is one of the reasons that I am suspecting the coaxial jumper between the ANAN and the "outside" world. I am not using it with the Kenwood.

When I used my Kenwood TS-950SDX (it was sitting in ANAN's place) in the circuit I did NOT observe changes in noise-floor. Same antennas, connectors.

Best!
Juha
PC: 8 Core i7-10700 CPU @ 2.90GHz, NVMe SK Hynix 512 GB SSD, 32GB RAM
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby n2gq » Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:51 pm

JJ4SDR wrote:Jay,

I am not sure how many others there might be who have observed what you did (on their MK III)?

Do you know what the hardware differences are between the MK II and MK III?

Juha


I am sorry but I'm new to this radio so can't help there. But your question was answered by someone who is very familiar with the radio. I just happened to be talking to my buddy on skype when I heard the the click then receive dropped. I turn off the console and turned back on and it stood in that state until I keyed up.
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby K1LSB » Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:02 pm

Scott posted earlier today in another thread that there are virtually no differences in hardware between the MK II and MK III radios.

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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:06 pm

K1LSB wrote:Scott posted earlier today in another thread that there are virtually no differences in hardware between the MK II and MK III radios.

It was this thread ;)
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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby K1LSB » Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:51 pm

~ apparently I don't have both oars in the water today! ~ :oops: :)

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Re: Abrupt reduction of noise floor on receive

Postby JJ4SDR » Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:04 pm

UPDATE

As mentioned previously, W5WC, wasn't able to reproduce the issue I had observed, no matter how hard he tried. Also, I am now on Thetis v2.9.0.7 x64 (2/12/23) and, initially, it seemed like that remedied the trouble. Helas, no!

Today, after having been on the air for about 1 hour, I see that Pure Signal is struggling to correct AND the output from the amp was way down too which could point to a bad TX/RX relay. Again, Doug tested the radio both on RX and TX and didn't see an issue. Should this not be a T/R relay issue, then it could potentially be caused by bad coaxial connections (using LMR-400 coax which is about 3 years old, all outdoor coaxial connections have been "triple-protected" against the elements) which I am going to try and eliminate as a cause next, by:

1.) Running the ANAN barefoot, with the amp out of the circuit, feeding RF direct into my antennas, with the logic being that I do not think
ALL 4 coaxial runs in the SHACK are defective (should I observe the same anomaly on all 4). I, did, in fact already try this about a week ago and the audio drop-off/out was taking place (I also swapped out the coaxial jumper between the antenna and the ANAN and the problem was still there) so I am doubtful that this has to do with poor coaxial connections. All 4 antennas are fed with 4 separate coaxial cables.
2.) If the above set-up makes no difference and I still observe this audio drop-off/out issue (which is now manifesting itself not only in receive audio but TX RF too) I will go back to my Kenwood TS-950SDX to see if the RF output drops in a significant manner. Again, I had also gone down this route already (no issue observed) which was the main reason to ship the radio to Doug.

Been thinking of getting rid of the Ethernet switch as well and plugging the radio straight into the PC, but if the issue is hardware related I doubt it that this will resolve anything. However, I also know from a friend that his problems went away by changing to a direct connection.

IF there is no RX or TX issue with the Kenwood set-up, I will want the T/R relay swapped out. Is the relay easy to source and I am hoping that swapping it out wouldn't be all that challenging. The more challenging part may be to actually get the chassis off.

I am running out of options!

Juha
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PC: 8 Core i7-10700 CPU @ 2.90GHz, NVMe SK Hynix 512 GB SSD, 32GB RAM
Windows 10 Home, Version 22H2
Thetis v2.10.4.3 x64
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