Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby Chipp » Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:00 pm

I interpret the Saturn announcement as a dual announcement from Apache Labs. The King, (7000 MK II) is dead, Long live the King (Saturn).

Marketing 101:
> Raise price of current model ($2995 now $3395)
> Slow walk delivery of all current models
> Introduce new model at same or marginally higher than current new price, additional $100 ($3495 without front panel) to incentivize
purchase of the new model.
> Add additional model(s) to address other current models (Andromeda is $600 - $900 more) and reduce offerings to a single product line with
options.

IMO why would someone order the 7000 MK II when they can get the latest improved technology, enhanced performance and a longer life cycle for $100 - $600 more.

The only open question is when will Apache Labs actually delivery the product.
W6MY - Chip
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby K1LSB » Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:34 pm

Chip,

1) The 7000 is not dead. The factory has worked feverishly to secure a long term supply for the new FPGA in the MK3 to supplant the one currently suffering from EOL in the MK2.

2) Laurence has stated that the Saturn offers no performance improvement over the 7000. Per his own statement in the video he linked earlier in this thread, the Saturn may in fact suffer a slight penalty in latency.

But I must applaud the expansive limits of your imagination!

Mark
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby Joe » Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:48 pm

I agree Mark, what we have now is more choices. The Saturn looks like it supplies the ability for an independent setup with an option for Ethernet feed through for Thetis, etc., not sure if this is where some latency may be affected? I prefer a pc tethered to the sdr but that’s my choice, I run a 8000dle and you won’t pry it from my dead hands, love it. Ha ha. We also now have an option for a 500 watt (8000)! That’s a whole lotta choices! Not really much to complain about, looking forward to hearing one of the new 8000 rigs on the air.

73’s
Joe
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby Chipp » Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:23 pm

Mark,

I received my Anan in August 2022. Although a complete newbie to SDR radios, I am a big fan of Anan and the community. I applaud the new Saturn and look forward to further announcements.

While my comments are based on decades of high tech industry experience, I acknowledge they are nothing more than pure conjecture on my part. I do wish that Apache Labs would be more participatory on the forum and forthright with timely and accurate communications.

1) The 7000 is not dead. The factory has worked feverishly to secure a long term supply for the new FPGA in the MK3 to supplant the one currently suffering from EOL in the MK2.

Has Apache Labs made this statement publicly? If so, why are folks still waiting for radios originally targeted for December 2022 delivery. I thought the delay was due to unavailability of parts.

2) Laurence has stated that the Saturn offers no performance improvement over the 7000. Per his own statement in the video he linked earlier in this thread, the Saturn may in fact suffer a slight penalty in latency.

I must admit I have 77 year old eyes and ears on this end. I viewed the Laurence Video three times and did not hear or see any reference to a "slight penalty in latency" I would appreciate you guiding me to the point in the presentation where this is mentioned.

But I must applaud the expansive limits of your imagination!

Thanks

Mark[/quote]
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby K1CWD » Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:18 am

The big problem with the Orion architecture is that it is seriously limited in that the "protocol" is implemented in a very difficult to change FPGA. A change for example to a potential "protocol three" would require the support of very good FPGA developers, and as we know they are just not out there willing to do the work. Even if developers were available, resources/critical timing constraints in the FPGA may not allow new features to be added, especially with the earlier variants of the Cyclone.

With Saturn, interface changes between the radio and the client software can be done in a fairly quick, low risk manner by a wider range of potential developer talent. For example, going to TCP/IP would be rather trivial for satisfying interface requirements that don't have serious low-latency requirements, such as normal control plane type activity.

The Saturn architecture is a much better design and stakeholders will quickly recognize that. Software/Firmware support and orders for Orion (7000 MKIII) will dwindle and eventually end as everyone moves on to the next best thing.

-Craig K1CWD

Edited this to add that it would be great if Apache Labs offered some kind of retrofit option at a relatively low cost (if technically feasible - as mentioned up-thread) for those of us that are still under warranty.
Last edited by K1CWD on Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby K1LSB » Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:26 am

Chipp wrote:I must admit I have 77 year old eyes and ears on this end. I viewed the Laurence Video three times and did not hear or see any reference to a "slight penalty in latency" I would appreciate you guiding me to the point in the presentation where this is mentioned.

1) Apache Labs' efforts to secure a replacement FPGA for the 7000 have been well chronicled in multiple fora in this community.

2) Laurence's comment regarding latency is in his response to a question asked at the 23:05 minute mark in the YouTube presentation in the link at the bottom of this post: viewtopic.php?f=47&t=4570#p24081

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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby K1CWD » Fri Mar 31, 2023 1:20 am

The more I think about this the more I have to laugh. The original OpenHPSDR architecture was modular and backplane based, which to some degree provided an upgrade path, a way to handle obsolescence at a potentially lower cost, and avoidance of vendor lock-in. By integrating everything into one board that all disappears. Of course you probably get somewhat better performance with reduced size, weight, and power. You kind of get fooled though, because you see FPGA and think that will allow for "future-proofing", but it's mostly a mirage in the case of Orion.

-Craig
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby N7CXI » Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:48 am

I don't have much to add regarding the FPGA, that seems to have been cussed and discussed adequately.
I do have one observation and three questions, though:

Observation:
I "get" that an enormous amount of prior art has been leveraged by making this design Protocol 2 compatible. Since that's UDP-based, though it makes the new rig less attractive to me. That doesn't mean I won't buy one anyway - because I throw money at amateur gear with abandon - just like you.

Questions:
(1) Does the Saturn design use any switching regulators? (on the board) It's on my peeve list - my 7000DLE MKII took a little surgery to mitigate it.
(2) Does the ANAN-G2 PA brick have a temperature compensated bias regulator? Peeve #2: my 7000DLE MKII PA gain drifts downward significantly as it heats, even at relatively low power. (like driving one of my HB SS amps) It drives me nuts.
(3) Will the ANAN-G2 PA heatsink and fan assembly allow 50% CW power for extended periods without significant heating?

The above is bluntly put. There's a lot to love with the 7000DLE MKII, but I remain eternally optimistic that my rather basic personal peeve list will be addressed in future models - after a number of successive model purchases where it hasn't been.

Thanks and 73,
Jim N7CXI
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:38 pm

K1CWD wrote:By integrating everything into one board that all disappears. Of course you probably get somewhat better performance with reduced size, weight, and power.

That might not be that fair of a statement. You want the FPGA on the same board as the ADC and DAC. These were split in the Mercury/Penelope days at the expense of having two FPGAs. The Hermes is really just the logical conclusion, and trying to make it more modular than that is probably not really worth it or a even a good move. And let there be no doubt, every card from the Hermes to the Saturn is practically identical, differing only in subtle ways. There are entire sections of Hermes stuff that is repeated wholesale on every board since.

You kind of get fooled though, because you see FPGA and think that will allow for "future-proofing", but it's mostly a mirage in the case of Orion.

It's as future-proof as there are developers willing to develop. The problem is not the architecture, or the FPGA, but the availability of developers. At least by moving some of the stuff out of the FPGA perhaps more things will become more accessible to more developers, since software developers are more plentiful than firmware developers.

I still lament the death of the Minerva project, which would have moved almost everything into the realm of C code. If they hadn't wanted to fit Minerva onto a single slot PCIE card they could probably have eliminated the FPGA entirely, replacing it with a microcontroller of some kind.

N7CXI wrote:Questions:
(1) Does the Saturn design use any switching regulators? (on the board) It's on my peeve list - my 7000DLE MKII took a little surgery to mitigate it.
(2) Does the ANAN-G2 PA brick have a temperature compensated bias regulator? Peeve #2: my 7000DLE MKII PA gain drifts downward significantly as it heats, even at relatively low power. (like driving one of my HB SS amps) It drives me nuts.
(3) Will the ANAN-G2 PA heatsink and fan assembly allow 50% CW power for extended periods without significant heating?

I'd be willing to bet a beer or three that none of those issues has been addressed and that the G2 will essentially be a 7000 but with some of the processing formerly confined to the FPGA now hosted in the Pi GPP (general purpose processor).

I'm inclined to give the switching chips a pass. While there could be more attention to detail on the design and implementation of the switchers, they are a fact of life for digital electronics like this. You need 5, 3.3 and 1.8VDC, and the easiest and generally safest way to do that is via onboard switchers. On more complex designs (not this one) power sequencing is very important and there are parts designed to do exactly that. Could Apache have developed an offboard linear supply? In fact that's the way it was at one time in the ANAN-100 and 100D. But those linear supplies got very hot and started to become a problem of their own and Apache went to switchers. Which is a good segue into a discussion of thermal design and, well, I'm just going to stop typing now ;)
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby SM3PZG » Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:20 am

[quote="K1CWD"]The big problem with the Orion architecture is that it is seriously limited in that the "protocol" is implemented in a very difficult to change FPGA. A change for example to a potential "protocol three" would require the support of very good FPGA developers, and as we know they are just not out there willing to do the work. Even if developers were available, resources/critical timing constraints in the FPGA may not allow new features to be added, especially with the earlier variants of the Cyclone.

Its very strange that a company with a yearly turnover of 6.3M (2021) and over 25 employees rely on voluntaries for development of software, firmware, support and forum moderation. Without this forum, Richie, Scott and a few others Apache-Labs would be out of business.

Apache-Labs has ZERO customer support. They don't reply on e-mail. They don't even update their website. Yearly turnover net profit is probably much higher today. Still they rely on this forum, voluntaries and customers that are in love with the software (including myself) for their business. Its really unbelievable.

They should ASAP hire firmware developers, moderators and a customer support function and start treating customers like customers before they launch new products like the G2.

73/Sam
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Apr 02, 2023 1:52 pm

Sam,

Don't forget that much of the basic hardware design also comes from the volunteer, open source community. Everything you find inside an Apache box can be directly traced back to the original openHPSDR hardware designs, in particular the Hermes, Alex, Apollo and Munin designs.

Indeed, look at all the work that Laurence did for the Saturn.

It is a strange set of circumstances to be sure, quite unique. How it came to be is summarized in a post I wrote here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4531&p=23611#p23608

Apache builds hardware to support the openHPSDR community. Clearly they do this at some profit. No more, no less. I've long stopped wishing Apache was a "real radio company" because it's just not going to happen.

It is important to know that all of this hardware work is being done under the auspices of the TAPR Open Hardware License (at least I'm not aware of Apache claiming any rights over and above this). You can find the license doc's here: https://tapr.org/the-tapr-open-hardware-license/. I have NOT studied this license in detail, but I suspect it applies to any circuit board we see coming out of Apache. Apache has reserved the rights to the Gerbers so you won't get those (people have tried).

Conceptually it would not be at all outside the realm of possibility for a group of people to take the openHPSDR software, firmware and hardware work and form their own "real radio company" to produce, market and support their own derivative works. Heck, they don't even have to be derivative, they could be proprietary. One could execute clean sheet of paper firmware and software designs and sell those at a profit to run on Apache-made hardware. Support plans could also be sold separately or included in the price.

But starting a company like that is not easy. So we have a community that is balanced on a knife edge. The hardware is not perfect, the software is not perfect, the firmware is not perfect and the support structure is not perfect. But it does things no other radio can do. As long as it all remains good enough to attract the interest, energy and talent of those that produce those things, and the same from those who enjoy buying (the hardware) and using it, the platform will survive. And when it doesn't it will fade into semi-obscurity like so many other radios before it.

The closest approximations to an Apache/Thetis setup are the offerings from Flex and Expert Electronics. But in both cases they do not include a great many of the important functions we find in our Apache/Thetis radios. Nevertheless, many people have jumped ship to those other offerings because of the strong, formal support structures they offer, which they find more valuable than advanced technical capabilities in Apache/Thetis. Everyone has to make the right choice for themselves. FWIW I'm sticking with what we've got here until such time as there's something that I find more technically compelling.

73,

Scott
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby N7CXI » Sun Apr 02, 2023 7:56 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:…got very hot and started to become a problem of their own and Apache went to switchers. Which is a good segue into a discussion of thermal design and, well, I'm just going to stop typing now ;)


If this was a commodity item I would agree. It’s a 4000 USD specialty device. It’s not like it’s impossible to quiet it down without using those nasty ITX power supply modules. Fine though, everyone has their own nit list. I have one for the Flex rigs as well, for the IC-7610 etc.

Nothing is perfect, but it would have been nice to have some things addressed. The bias regulator, for example could have been low-hanging fruit.

73,
Jim N7CXI
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby W4ATL » Sat Apr 08, 2023 12:01 pm

The 7000 with Thetis is capable of excellent QSK CW, but needs hardware modification to prevent two pure signal relays from engaging during transmit and the replacement of the T/R mechanical relay with a reed relay for improved performance. Does the new radio improve on the 7000 CW design?
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Apr 08, 2023 12:26 pm

Based on the history of RF board designs it's more likely that the G2 will use the same RF boards that are in the 7000.
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby w9ac » Sat Apr 08, 2023 1:13 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:Based on the history of RF board designs it's more likely that the G2 will use the same RF boards that are in the 7000.

The new PA board revision shows PIN diode QSK T/R switching.

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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Apr 08, 2023 1:34 pm

How do you know this, Paul? Have you seen schematics?
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby w9ac » Sat Apr 08, 2023 3:34 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:How do you know this, Paul? Have you seen schematics?

Yes, I have the full schematic of the V.14 PA/LPF board which shows a moderately complex PIN diode T/R structure. It's significantly different than prior boards.

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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby K4IBC » Sat Apr 08, 2023 3:41 pm

w9ac wrote:
w-u-2-o wrote:How do you know this, Paul? Have you seen schematics?

Yes, I have the full schematic of the V.14 PA/LPF board which shows a moderately complex PIN diode T/R structure. It's significantly different than prior boards.

Paul, W9AC


That is a nice improvement. I don't use QSK but like the non-mechanical switching. Yes I know relays have been used for years but they do have a finite life.
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby W2PA » Sat Apr 08, 2023 4:37 pm

Yes, I have the full schematic of the V.14 PA/LPF board which shows a moderately complex PIN diode T/R structure. It's significantly different than prior boards.


Paul - you've suddenly made me sit up and pay attention! 8-)
73,
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Apr 08, 2023 4:50 pm

w9ac wrote:
w-u-2-o wrote:How do you know this, Paul? Have you seen schematics?

Yes, I have the full schematic of the V.14 PA/LPF board which shows a moderately complex PIN diode T/R structure. It's significantly different than prior boards.

Paul, W9AC

Have they shipped any 7000's or Andromedas with this board?
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby w9ac » Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:03 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:Have they shipped any 7000's or Andromedas with this board?

Good question, but I don't know.

Paul, W9AC
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby laurencebarker » Sat Apr 08, 2023 7:49 pm

Before anyone asks, I don't know that either. For the prototype we've used a relay equipped board. I do know that Abhi has been looking at this for a long time, but achieving sufficient linearity is the challenge.

Saturn has a QSK keyer that is based on the Orion code with almost no changes. CW users will find it familiar.
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby w-u-2-o » Mon Apr 10, 2023 2:44 pm

Here's the deal on the PIN diode PA board schematic (which I'm guessing should not have been publicly posted):

No units have shipped with this design, and none are going to. As Laurence has already mentioned, achieving reasonable linearity performance with that (and other) designs has not yet been achievable.

What is much more likely is a future design that uses quieter relays, but still relays. In the mean time it's a safe bet that G2's will ship with the same RF boards as those found in the 7000/Andromeda.
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby w9ac » Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:59 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:Here's the deal on the PIN diode PA board schematic (which I'm guessing should not have been publicly posted):

No units have shipped with this design, and none are going to. As Laurence has already mentioned, achieving reasonable linearity performance with that (and other) designs has not yet been achievable.

What is much more likely is a future design that uses quieter relays, but still relays. In the mean time it's a safe bet that G2's will ship with the same RF boards as those found in the 7000/Andromeda.

A significant improvement can be made by simply unlinking the PS relays from the T/R relay on the PA board. Unfortunately, the relay coils are hardwired together, and no amount of firmware/software engineering can fix it.

With a shock-mounted T/R relay, there's no mechanical noise transmitted to, and amplified by, the PC board. As much as I like PIN diode T/R systems, this alternative keeps circuitry simple: there's no diode bias optimization and there's also no worry about diode failure when transmitting into an infinite SWR.

PIN diode switching is easily managed up to approximately 100W but beyond that, it really requires up-converting the DC power source to several hundred volts to bias the receive diodes from conducting under any mismatch condition. So, for a 200W PA, that makes a complex system even more complex to cover the diode failure modes.

I use a minimally shock-mounted Aromat RSD-12V RF reed relay in my 7000DLE. There's no detectable mechanical noise except when placing the ear directly on the enclosure. Although now long obsolete, certainly there are other equally good alternatives.

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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby w3ub » Sat Apr 15, 2023 7:48 pm

Does anyone know if the FW and SW guys are actively working on this? The website says they could ship May 22. Of course they rarely meet the commitments on their website. Or if at least the FW and SW guys are willing and ready to work on this once the HW is available?

Thanks,
Doug
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Apr 15, 2023 8:03 pm

If you are buying the version without the front panel then AFAIK all of the firmware is done, as well as the "middleware" which is the app on the Pi that must run in order to provide the Ethernet interface protocols that Thetis expects. There should be no changes required for Thetis, however there is another mic port on the unit which uses a mini-XLR connector. This mic port cannot be selected with Thetis at this time. However, this is not a big deal IMHO, since that port is nothing special, it does not implement a balanced mic input and it will not provide 48V phantom power for professional condenser microphones.

As far as the version with the front panel I'm not sure, but perhaps Laurence will chime in with an answer.
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby laurencebarker » Sat Apr 15, 2023 10:06 pm

I would say we are actively working on it; I've spend most of today modifying the linux device driver for a newer Kernel release (with help from Rick N1GP) and working on an app for testing microphone and speaker connections.

The FPGA design, and software to emulate protocol 2, have all of the functions we intend. Both have been stable for a few months. Like any of the other HPSDR line it will never be complete: we will be actively adding new functions for a while. For instance:

1. The XLR mic port: there is no data bit in protocol 2 to select XLR instead of the front panel port. It **is** a proper differential microphone input with differential amplifier, but doesn't have a way to provide phantom power. If you have a dynamic microphone it will work fine; there are phantom power injectors available for other microphones. I imagine will we will end up with some kind of "audio config file" as a short term solution to select it; as a long term solution, maybe we will extend protocol 2 (and Thetis) to select that. I've put a few thousand lines of code into Thetis for Andromeda; I imagine I will add more for this project.

2. For various reasons we've decided that the hardware should be announced to Thetis as "Saturn" instead of pretending to be an Orion mk2. Yesterday I added the code to the protocol 2 app to support both identities. Next step will be more code in Thetis to recognise Saturn. That could include the differential input.

There will be two front panels: one based on Andromeda and one based on the pihpsdr controller. the latter is based in code that has been in pihpsdr for a few years. The Andromeda type panel is based on code that Rick added to pihpsdr over the last few months. That's what I'm working with, and it operates nicely. What I don't know is: could a PC user with Thetis have access to the Andromeda-like front panel connected to Saturn. It is a documented issue to consider; I don't yet know a solution.

This is a radio that has been in development for several years. I first discussed its concept with the HPSDR meeting at Friedrichshafen I think 5 years ago; many of its features were scoped at that meeting. It has taken this long to come to fruition: there are several person years work in it. And yes, it is active development.
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby Trucker » Sun Apr 16, 2023 1:00 am

Sounds like an interesting project. I might be tempted to sell a few more radios and put a deposit on this one. I pretend to be a programmer at times. C# has become my favorite language. I keep trying to write (llearn) how to create a spectrum and waterfall display for my Flex 6600M. I manage to get it working then, I delete some code I shouldn't, and kill part of it. The Flex API makes it fairly easy for a beginner like me. I have downloaded the Thetis source code. And can see I might be in over my head trying to make changes to Thetis. But, I am still interested in trying. Looking forward to seeing a Saturn in action!
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby w3ub » Sun Apr 16, 2023 11:29 am

Thanks for the detailed update Lawrence. I figured you guys were working on it, but just wanted to be sure. I ponder the display option, considering it it not too much of a $$$ increase.

Do you think it would be possible, at least in the beginning, to have a way of not using the internal display at all, but still control it with a PC running Thetis, even if that meant loading a non-display version of the FW? And then perhaps much later on having the option to go either way in an easier manner?

Thanks again,
Doug
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Re: Saturn: A New Apache Labs SDR Transceiver (ANAN-G2)

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Apr 16, 2023 1:00 pm

Thank you for the additional info, Laurence!

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