Thetis v2.9.0 - Updates and Issues

[w-u-2-o]

@scott
do you move drv slider for 2tone? do you have drv slider always maxed for 2tone? do you use the setting in 2tone test to use drive power or do you have 100 pre-set in there?

R.

I do not move the drive slider for two tone. It is set automatically to it's nominal value for full external amp drive by means of either the band stack or via the "autodrive" mechanism I have built into my station automation (a copy of the DDUtil autodrive feature).

I do use the setting in Setup > Test > Two Tone to "Use drive power" for two tone.

It would be a bad idea to have any power level preset in Test > Two Tone because the drive level for the amp is different on every band/mode combination.

So to add a little detail to my work flow, Step 4:

4. Check drive power with TWO TONE at full drive, where "full drive" equals the ANAN drive power required to get the external amplifier to the desired power level, generally 1500W. Drive power is generally close thanks to band stacks or autodrive functionality, but often requires a little fine tuning due to VSWR effects.

[w-u-2-o]

also, there is no problem to have something like 3 radio buttons on each of Tune + 2Tone

o Use Drive Power (slider) (per band)
o Use Tune Power (slider) (per band)
o Use fixed value (all bands)

R.

updated post sorry

That sound like it will work. That's pretty much the way it is now, but you'll be exposing the tune power slider onto the main UI and making it per band, which is a nice refinement.

[K1LSB]

Richie,

I've always used "Use Drive Level" for Tune (I don't use Two-Tone for anything at all and never have).

My work flow steps:

1. TUNE my antenna tuner at drive (TUN) power with amp in standby.
2. Switch amp to operate.
3. TUNE my amp (and fully load it) at drive (TUN) power.
4. Begin transmitting.

That procedure is extremely simple for me to remember and to execute, there's no need (or risk) to check and sync multiple sliders.

Please don't remove the option to "Use Drive Level" for Tune. Generally speaking, optimal performance (and life) is derived from a tube amp by loading (tuning) the amp for the drive power you're going to be using, that's the very reason the "Use Drive Level" Tune option exists.

Besides, I'm an old man and my memory doesn't hardly work at all anymore. If the "Use Drive Level" option was removed I'm much more likely to smoke my amp at some point, if only because the tuning procedure got more complicated.

Thanks,
Mark

[W2PA]

Richie,

My most common procedure is the same as Mark's. In fact, I have a Tune button on the MIDI controller, right next to a drive level knob.

Bottom line, I use Tune to get ready to operate. Eliminating the link between Tune and Drive would add complexity. Keep both sliders without eliminating the link. So my vote is to keep your #2 thru 4 but please don't do #1.

[ramdor]

Richie,

My most common procedure is the same as Mark's. In fact, I have a Tune button on the MIDI controller, right next to a drive level knob.

Bottom line, I use Tune to get ready to operate. Eliminating the link between Tune and Drive would add complexity. Keep both sliders without eliminating the link. So my vote is to keep your #2 thru 4 but please don't do #1.

as mentioned tune + 2tone could have the following that you can choose between. I will edit original post to include that info.

o Use Drive Power (slider) (per band)
o Use Tune Power (slider) (per band)
o Use fixed value (all bands)

R.

[W4WMT]

If you're looking to free up some space on the console, why not deprecate the wideband compressor controls?
Does anyone still use that terrible compressor?

[w-u-2-o]

I don't use Two-Tone for anything at all and never have.

The nice thing about using two tone is that it can work better for PureSignal to settle in to a solution. However some amp's don't like two-tone for tuning. I see we now have a "F#2 delay# setting to help with that.

Another two tone tip: if the two tones are changed to 70 and 190Hz it works just as well for PureSignal, it works better for some amps that are sensitive to the 700/1900 combination, and it also happens to sound a lot less obnoxious--not "The Call of Our People"

[w-u-2-o]

If you're looking to free up some space on the console, why not deprecate the wideband compressor controls?
Does anyone still use that terrible compressor?

"That terrible compressor" And CESSB, too--both quite obsolete. However there's probably a few people still preferring the Old Ways. No reason to deprecate them. Another way to skin this cat would be to make the COMP button rotate through an off setting, COMP and CFC, much the same as the NR button rotates through off, NR and NR2 modes.

[K1LSB]

I don't use Two-Tone for anything at all and never have.

The nice thing about using two tone is that it can work better for PureSignal to settle in to a solution.

It's been my observation that PS locks on to a Correcting condition extremely quickly (typically less than a second) after simply speaking into the mic upon PTT, especially since Richie added the "Quick Attenuate Response" option.

Also, I get rather different (and kinda ugly) curves in the AmpView screen when using TwoTone. Those curves smooth out after a few seconds of mic audio so I decided early on (rightly or not) that TwoTone doesn't give me PS correction characteristics that are optimal for phone audio, so I just quit using it.

Mark

[w-u-2-o]

Also, I get rather different (and kinda ugly) curves in the AmpView screen when using TwoTone. Those curves smooth out after a few seconds of mic audio so I decided early on (rightly or not) that TwoTone doesn't give me PS correction characteristics that are optimal for phone audio, so I just quit using it.

Interesting. Perhaps that is an artifact of the amp response to the two tone signal.

Have you tried 70/190 in lieu of 700/1900? I'd be interested to know if that works better for you, and it might provide some insight into the amp response.

With a KPA1500 amplifier on 15M, the AmpView curves are nearly identical for me between two tone and voice:

voice.JPG (59.97 KiB) Viewed 6471 times

twotone.JPG (59.98 KiB) Viewed 6471 times

[W1RHS]

Hi Richie,

I don't know if this is important but I thought I would log it here just in case.

I get three application errors in the Event Log when I launch Thetis:

The Open procedure for service "WmiApRpl" in DLL "C:\WINDOWS\system32\wbem\wmiaprpl.dll" failed with error code The device is not ready.. Performance data for this service will not be available.

The Open procedure for service "MSDTC" in DLL "C:\WINDOWS\system32\msdtcuiu.DLL" failed with error code The system cannot find the file specified.. Performance data for this service will not be available.

The Open procedure for service "ESENT" in DLL "C:\WINDOWS\system32\esentprf.dll" failed with error code Access is denied.. Performance data for this service will not be available.

These errors do not appear if I launch Thetis as Administrator. I get the errors on more than one system.

Another thing which may be normal, if I launch Thetis but do not start the radio (do not press the power button), Thetis consumes over 90% of one CPU core while sitting idle. I only noticed it because I heard the computer fans ramp up.

Thetis 2.9.0 x64 on Win11

Thanks for all you do!

[K1LSB]

Also, I get rather different (and kinda ugly) curves in the AmpView screen when using TwoTone. Those curves smooth out after a few seconds of mic audio so I decided early on (rightly or not) that TwoTone doesn't give me PS correction characteristics that are optimal for phone audio, so I just quit using it.

Interesting. Perhaps that is an artifact of the amp response to the two tone signal.

Have you tried 70/190 in lieu of 700/1900? I'd be interested to know if that works better for you, and it might provide some insight into the amp response.

With a KPA1500 amplifier on 15M, the AmpView curves are nearly identical for me between two tone and voice:

voice.JPG

twotone.JPG

Very insightful of you, Scott! Here's what I get with my AL-80B on 75M:

Voice.jpg (61.53 KiB) Viewed 6447 times

2TON_70-190.jpg (60.19 KiB) Viewed 6447 times

2TON_default.jpg (60.58 KiB) Viewed 6447 times

Thanks!
Mark

[w-u-2-o]

Very interesting Mark, thank you for performing that experiment

It would seem there are certain amp's out there that really don't like the 700/1900 combination, but are just fine with the 70/190 combo. This doesn't meet the standard two tone test parameters of two frequencies between 300-3000Hz, and at least 1000Hz apart, but it does meet the requirement for non-harmonically related. At any rate, although it's not standard, it does functionally work for driving PureSignal to closure, and, if the TX panadapter is zoomed in enough, provides a good indication of IMD performance. And it is digestible by a wide variety of amplifiers.

[w-u-2-o]

CESSB discussion moved to it's own dedicated topic: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4139

[w8du]

I have looked but cannot find a list of the ZZ CAT commands and their syntax that are implemented in the latest version of Thetis. Can someone point me to this?
Tnx es 73 de Arnie W8DU

[w-u-2-o]

It's the very first tacked/sticky post right here, you can't miss it: viewforum.php?f=16

It is not up to date, but it is close.

I have been working on an update to this that is Thetis-only, but it's very much a background task for me.

[w8du]

Thanks Scott. I did see that but was wondering, actually, about the additional commands that Ramdor indicated were implemented in his latest release.

[w1tr]

I have been using Thetis 2.8.11 21K8 and it works fine...
I upgraded to 2.8.11 21K9 a few days ago and the Automatic AGC Gain Level failed, it set the gain to the max, 120.
I then upgraded to 2.9.0.2 today and the same issue, automatic AGC GAIN level is set to max, 120.

It seems that the transition from 2.8.11 21K8 to 21K9 broke this capability?

[W1AEX]

It would seem there are certain amp's out there that really don't like the 700/1900 combination, but are just fine with the 70/190 combo.

Scott, my new Mercury IIIs amplifier is one of those that does not take kindly to the 700/1900 two-tone test. It seems to be fine with the 70/190 combination of tones though so thanks for sharing that!

73, Rob W1AEX

[ramdor]

I have been using Thetis 2.8.11 21K8 and it works fine...
I upgraded to 2.8.11 21K9 a few days ago and the Automatic AGC Gain Level failed, it set the gain to the max, 120.
I then upgraded to 2.9.0.2 today and the same issue, automatic AGC GAIN level is set to max, 120.

It seems that the transition from 2.8.11 21K8 to 21K9 broke this capability?

Nothing is broken, you just need to adjust the values here, to get it where you want :

autoagc.png (9.18 KiB) Viewed 6265 times

there are reasons why the values changed, as it now takes sample rate / bin width into consideration. It was discussed extensively at the time it was fixed.

Richie.

[w1tr]

I updated to 2.9.0.3 and I claim the Auto AGC Gain is STILL BROKEN:
One image is the settings I am using, I INTEND to be just below the band noise so I pick up digital message.
the other image is the Thetis GUI... it shows where the AGC Gain is set, clearly not where it should be!!!

AGC Gain Settings.png (5.31 KiB) Viewed 6261 times

Thetis GUI.png (201.39 KiB) Viewed 6261 times

[m1tzr]

I updated to 2.9.0.3 and I claim the Auto AGC Gain is STILL BROKEN:
One image is the settings I am using, I INTEND to be just below the band noise so I pick up digital message.
the other image is the Thetis GUI... it shows where the AGC Gain is set, clearly not where it should be!!!

AGC Gain Settings.pngThetis GUI.png

Try setting the Value to 30 instead of -5 and see how that is. You can then tweak the value to what you like. Notice Richies is 24 not a minus number.

Paul

[w1tr]

Here is Thetis 2.8.11 Automatic AGC Gain working as it should

Thetis 2.8.11 GUI.png (200.22 KiB) Viewed 6254 times

[ramdor]

STILL BROKEN:

ok, whatever you say then in that case. I can't fix what is not broken however.

Increase the -5's to something larger, to move the gain compensation which is based on the noise floor. Keep incrementing it and you will see the AGC slider on the left reduce in value. You probably want it somewhere in the range of 20-40 and not -5 !

Richie.

[w1tr]

Can you at least ACKNOWLEDGE that the GUI for 2.8.11 shows it working correctly, and 2.9.0.3 NOT ?

[Tony EI7BMB]

2.9.3 is working correctly, you need to set the auto agc offset value to something more than -5

[ramdor]

Can you at least ACKNOWLEDGE that the GUI for 2.8.11 shows it working correctly, and 2.9.0.3 NOT ?

Not really no.

It used to move all over the place if you changed bin width. It works differently and now correctly.

Richie.

[w1tr]

Well, I guess I stuck with 2.8.11...
Furthermore... if you use Memories...
1) there is no place to enable/disable the Auto AGC Gain
2) If you select a memory channel, it wipes out the Auto AGC Gain setting and you have to re-enable it.

Is there some action when changing versions between 2.9.0.3 and 2.8.11 other than the directions to RESTART, could that be affecting things?

Does Auto AGC work for you on 2.9.0.3?
Regardless of the offset value +20 or -20, the result is the same... max AGC GAIN here.

[ramdor]

Well, I guess I stuck with 2.8.11...
Furthermore... if you use Memories...
1) there is no place to enable/disable the Auto AGC Gain
2) If you select a memory channel, it wipes out the Auto AGC Gain setting and you have to re-enable it.

Is there some action when changing versions between 2.9.0.3 and 2.8.11 other than the directions to RESTART, could that be affecting things?

Does Auto AGC work for you on 2.9.0.3?
Regardless of the offset value +20 or -20, the result is the same... max AGC GAIN here.

1) right click on the AGC slider (rx1 or rx2) to enable/disable or use the checkbox in settings
2) any change to agc value, cat, memory, midi, etc, causes auto agc compensation to turn off. I can add an option to ignore that

If you display the noise floor (under display-rx1) you can check where it thinks it is. It is where the AGC with automatic noise floor compensation gets the NF calc from. It does not need to be shown for this to work, however it will only operate with panadaptor/waterfall atm.

dnf.png (9.69 KiB) Viewed 6231 times

Something to note, you should be able to 'drive' up the values in the config to move your AGC. Just mouse wheel them, and move it to where you want. I would suggest you increase them.

offset.png (9.36 KiB) Viewed 6231 times

Also, just to add, I can run with a dummy load with a NF of around -144dB and the auto comp agc runs fine (i use approx. +32dB as the setting).

DL.png (77.43 KiB) Viewed 6231 times

Richie.

[NC3Z]

I run 20dB and that works very well on 160M and 80M, but I am using a low noise receive antenna.