RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

JJ4SDR
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RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby JJ4SDR » Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:49 pm

"Last gasp" effort to understand why this is happening. To me, it would seem that there is something wrong with RX1.

As I had reported quite extensively many weeks ago, RX1 exhibits a strange anomaly - noise floor dropping and then bouncing back several times in a row (regardless of band or antenna) whereas RX2 does not. The radio was looked at by Doug, W5WC, without any resolution although he tried as hard as he could. He even replaced the PA/Filter board. I think I also mentioned to him that RX2 behaves as expected, steady as a rock. I just emailed him this screen capture - actually, a video capture- (you can see the drop-off in noise-floor towards the end).

Two images below.

Juha
Attachments
RX1_RX2 After.jpg
RX1_RX2 After.jpg (350.48 KiB) Viewed 3785 times
RX1_RX2_Before.jpg
RX1_RX2_Before.jpg (348.87 KiB) Viewed 3785 times
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby NC3Z » Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:10 pm

Missing a bit of info to give a better answer. Your meter is in the way of seeing your dB level on the left, and also the Thetis version is chopped of.

My first question would be do you happen to have this checked?

Screenshot 2023-06-06 190627.jpg
Screenshot 2023-06-06 190627.jpg (220.34 KiB) Viewed 3779 times
Gary NC3Z
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby JJ4SDR » Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:17 pm

Gary,

No, the box is not checked.

Thetis version you can see at bottom of my post.

Again, I wish I could have attached a brief video clip but can't. The noise-floor ebbs and flows ion RX1 whereas it stays "steady" on RX2.

Scott asked me the same question many weeks ago.

Juha
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby K1LSB » Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:39 pm

Juha,

Looking at your spectrum displays, it's apparent that the S/N ratio in RX1 isn't as strong as RX2. I'm curious why that is, and what specific antennas are feeding each receiver?

Mark

Edit: Can you swap the antennas on RX1 and RX2 and post another snapshot?
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby JJ4SDR » Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:55 pm

Mark,

RX1 had an End-Fed-Half-Wave connected and RX2 is using an inverted V dipole at 33'. I will do the "swap" and post tomorrow.

When it comes to signal strength, depending on where the station is, there can be a difference of 2-3 S units when I bounce between the 2 antennas.

73,
Juha

UPDATE: Images below (swapped antennas)
RX1_RX2 Antennas swapped 2.jpg
RX1_RX2 Antennas swapped 2.jpg (352.35 KiB) Viewed 3755 times
RX1_RX2 Antennas swapped.jpg
RX1_RX2 Antennas swapped.jpg (336.49 KiB) Viewed 3755 times
Last edited by JJ4SDR on Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby K1LSB » Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:07 am

JJ4SDR wrote:Mark,

RX1 had an End-Fed-Half-Wave connected and RX2 is using an inverted V dipole at 33'. I will do the "swap" and post tomorrow.

When it comes to signal strength, depending on where the station is, there can be a difference of 2-3 S units when I bounce between the 2 antennas.

73,
Juha

And before you grab the snapshot, please move the big MultiMeter out of the way so the dB scale on the left edge of the RX1 display is visible, as I want to verify that the dB scaling is the same on both receivers.

Thanks,
Mark
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby JJ4SDR » Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:17 am

Mark,
I know what you are saying, but regardless of the scaling (it is a tad different, I noticed), the noise floor sinks very low, AND, the floor goes up and down so even with slightly different scaling (I will make them the same), it is obvious that something isn't right.
Thanks!

Juha

UPDATE: Matched scales

RX1_RX2 with RX1 down.jpg
RX1_RX2 with RX1 down.jpg (547.17 KiB) Viewed 3756 times
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby JJ4SDR » Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:45 am

I will make another test tomorrow with the antenna connected to RX1 feeding both receivers and still another test with an antenna connected to RX2 feeding both receivers. Gary - NC3Z - advised me on this, using the ADCs. That way, we can take out the difference that having 2 different antennas connected might generate.

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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby JJ4SDR » Fri Jun 09, 2023 6:55 pm

UPDATE:

Tested again with the same antenna feeding both receivers (at least one less variable out of the equation) and the noise-floor went way down and then came up again to "normal" and this pattern continued for a few minutes, eventually, ending in both receivers exhibiting very low noise-floor. It was like someone had unplugged my antenna all of a sudden. Matched the Panadapter scales too so the 2 receivers displays were identical.

Tested this using 2 other antennas (2 different bands) too and the same happened. So, perhaps this is "good news" as the 2 receivers act in tandem.

I haven't looked inside the radio as getting the cover off is a bear, but if you swap out the PA/Filter board it won't remedy the receiver issue, right?
Doug pulled the PA/Filter board and installed a new one.

I have my Kenwood rig on now, to see if the receiver acts up (I will step through the same 3 bands), but so far, no.

Juha
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby NC3Z » Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:14 pm

You didnt mention if this test was using a common ADC or seperate.

What is the radio model?
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby JJ4SDR » Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:21 pm

Gary, I used the same antenna for both receivers, sharing ("common) the ADC. I went by what you had suggested.

Radio is ANAN 7000 DLE MKII (black front) that I've had for almost 2 years. It had been working flawlessly for about 1.5 years and it started acting up only a few months ago.

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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Jun 09, 2023 8:27 pm

It's assumed you shared ADC0.

Try this again sharing ADC1 and report your results.

Use the same antenna that you used with ADC0.
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby JJ4SDR » Sat Jun 10, 2023 2:32 pm

Tried it yesterday (monitoring for roughly 30 minutes) using the same antenna.

After about 10 minutes, the noise floor went from around -119 down to -132 (occurred 3 times) before "stabilizing" and going back to -119.

Decided to do it again this morning. After 30 minutes, no changes in noise floor whatsoever (again, monitored the situation for about 30 minutes).
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby K1LSB » Sat Jun 10, 2023 3:55 pm

Juha,

During the noise floor changes, have you been monitoring the voltage reported by Thetis?

Mark

Edit: During the noise floor changes, have you been watching the voltage being reported by your Thetis session? The wall socket voltage in my shack will vary from a high of 126.4 on a cool weekend morning all the way down to 114.2 on a hot summer weekday. I'm wondering if such fluctuations may be affecting the voltage being delivered to your Anan, because you reported that you haven't noticed any noise floor variations this morning (a weekend morning).
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby JJ4SDR » Sat Jun 10, 2023 9:15 pm

Shouldn't the DC power supply (Astron) be able to deal with minor swings in the mains voltage? And, no, I haven't been monitoring the mains, but did at some point think that perhaps my DC supply wasn't up to the task.

Shouldn't I see a very low DC voltage displayed at bottom of the Thetis GUI though and why would my very old Kenwood TS-950SDX not exhibit variations in the noise floor?

Juha
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby K1LSB » Sat Jun 10, 2023 10:28 pm

JJ4SDR wrote:Shouldn't the DC power supply (Astron) be able to deal with minor swings in the mains voltage? And, no, I haven't been monitoring the mains, but did at some point think that perhaps my DC supply wasn't up to the task.

Shouldn't I see a very low DC voltage displayed at bottom of the Thetis GUI though and why would my very old Kenwood TS-950SDX not exhibit variations in the noise floor?

Juha

Yes, any good power supply should be able to cope with moderate mains voltage swings. However, as I stated, the voltage at my QTH in the DFW metro-mess swings through quite a wide range, and you live only a stone's throw from me so I wouldn't be surprised to find out your QTH experiences similar mains voltage variations. If for some reason your power supply wasn't up to the task of regulating your shack's 13.8 volts then that could possibly be a factor in the symptoms you're experiencing. Also, I'm no fan of the PowerPole connections on the back of the 7KDLE -- another ham here in Arlington who also owns a 7KDLW was having major problems during TX until I suggested he firmly bond his 13.8v supply to his radio, whereupon his problem vanished.

However, if you're seeing a steady 13.8-ish volts in Thetis then your power supply is probably not the problem.

I'll make you this offer ---if you'd like, you can bring your radio over to my QTH and we'll swap out your radio for mine in the shack and see if we can replicate your problem over here. If we can, then the problem is definitely in to your radio. If we can't then the problem lies somewhere at your QTH -- it may be something in your Thetis settings, or possibly your ethernet settings, or maybe your coax, who knows.

My QRZ email address is good, send me an email if you want to take me up on my offer.

Mark
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Jun 11, 2023 12:01 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:It's assumed you shared ADC0.

Try this again sharing ADC1 and report your results.

Use the same antenna that you used with ADC0.

You still haven't tried this test...
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby JJ4SDR » Sun Jun 11, 2023 2:41 pm

Mark,

I sure value your kind suggestion and I may take you up on it :) ! My email is good on qrz.com. As for the mains voltage, it is in the range of 121.2V-122.0V, according my Fluke 107 meter (as of 9AM today, Sunday). Will check what the swing is on a weekday too. And, yes, I am no fan of PowerPole connections either. The DC voltage (a least according to what Thetis tells me) is in the 13.6V-13.9V range which should be fine. Out of curiosity, what is that range for you when you transmit? I will check that next. I do have a switching power supply by Jetstream (max 40A, continuous ) that I can try on transmit. However, I already tried it several weeks when I started observing this receive issue. It didn't make any difference although I didn't check how low the DC went on transmit.

Scott,

I am sorry that I wasn't clear enough, but what I posted below were the results from what you had suggested (same antenna, using ADC1):
Tried it yesterday (monitoring for roughly 30 minutes) using the same antenna. The coaxial jumper between RX2 and antenna is different from the one I had used when the same antenna was connected to RX1.

After about 10 minutes, the noise floor went from around -119 down to -132 (occurred 3 times) before "stabilizing" and going back to -119.
Decided to do it again this morning. After 30 minutes, no changes in noise floor whatsoever (again, monitored the situation for about 30 minutes).


I redid the test you suggested again this Sunday morning, having swapped out the coaxial jumper, so that the jumper is the SAME I had used when antenna was connected to RX1 and when the 2 receivers shared ADC0. About 30 minutes of monitoring and no anomaly observed. Both receivers behave in perfect tandem.

June 11 RX1_RX2 Test Sharing ADC1.jpg
June 11 RX1_RX2 Test Sharing ADC1.jpg (564.86 KiB) Viewed 3278 times


UPDATE1:
Doing the same - original - test again sharing ADC0 between the 2 receivers, with antenna connected to RX1. Both behaving normal after 20 minutes. Wondering if this could be thermal related (shack temp is 82F right now)? Will see if the anomaly occurs more readily with higher shack temp.

UPDATE2:
Went into transmit mode, to gauge how solid my DC power supply is. At about 40W out, DC went down to 13.1V and down to 12.9V when output was about 70W. That doesn't seem too bad.

Juha
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby K1LSB » Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:23 pm

Juha,

My Thetis-reported voltages is 13.8 on receive and drops to 12.9 during TX of a 54 watt carrier (12.8 if my AL-80B is enabled), which the radio seems to handle just fine.

Mark
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Jun 11, 2023 8:01 pm

82F ambient is almost certainly too high a temperature for proper operation. I don't remember reading that temperatures were this high on any of your (many) previous posts.

The thermal design of Apache hardware is not terribly capable and the thermal margin on Protocol 2 firmware timing closure very small. It would be completely unsurprising to observe intermittent behavior like this due to problems with firmware timing closure at elevated ambient temperatures. I fully expect to read that you duplicate the problem when you increase the temperature in your shack.

You need to reduce the temperature of your shack. It's no wonder Doug could not reproduce your problem.
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby JJ4SDR » Mon Jun 12, 2023 2:19 am

Scott,

If 82F ambient is too high constitutes a serious flaw in the design and if this sort of temperature is "too high," then I think Apache-Labs would be encouraged to specify proper operating temperature. I live in Texas, so 82F is nothing untoward whatsoever. It is almost "cool" to us local folks :lol: .

That reminds me that I am not sure if I actually ever saw a temperature spec for the hardware, but perhaps I missed it. My trusty Kenwood analog radio's op temp goes all the way to +122F. Yes, I realize, that is a foolish "comparison".

Interestingly, when I did 2 tests just now,1st, ANT connected to RX1, sharing ADC0 between the 2 receivers and 2nd, ANT connected to RX2, sharing ADC1 between the 2 receivers, I am observing something very interesting. NOTE, I don't operate the station which is located on the 2nd floor of the house (when it is this hot, at almost 94F).

1st test:
After only a few minutes, noise floor on both RX1 and RX2 went down in tandem, to where, it seemed like I had no antenna connected. And, I didn't see the floor bounce back.
2nd test:
Several minutes of monitoring, neither receiver showed any reduction in noise floor and stayed identical for about 5 minutes.

Q1: So, does the above suggest that ADC1 works, but ADC0 can't take it?
Q2: I had been using Protocol 1 for almost a year and I never observed this phenomenon. Perhaps, I roll back to Protocol 1 (yes, I know, you actually suggested I try that weeks ago, but I didn't). I just need to find out which version of Thetis is compatible with Protocl 1 as I already forgot which version I has been using.

Juha
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby w-u-2-o » Mon Jun 12, 2023 2:24 am

The version of Thetis you are using should work with P1.

If P1 works reliably then it is a thermal issue with P2 timing closure. Buy an air conditioner!
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby PD3LK » Mon Jun 12, 2023 7:04 am

Hi, it's 28 degrees in my shack (roughly 82F) but my 7k II doesn't have this issue.
My humble cuts say's to open the 7K and investigate the relays in the front-end. Tap on them while RX is on, it could be a bad contact.

73/Leon
73 PD3LK Leon
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby JJ4SDR » Mon Jun 12, 2023 12:50 pm

Scott,

I have AC, but I don't run it always upstairs. By the way, Phil, VK6PH wrote to me yesterday saying "It gets to over 100F in my shack and I have remote access via the Internet so its not a temperature issue."

It just hit me, you specified in a Firmware related post (Jan 16, 2023 UPDATE) that "ANAN-7000DLE MKII, no serial number or serial number lower than DX8300497A" - MINE is - that my hardware would need to be flashed to v.2.1.18 when using Protocol 2. Now, Doug put in a new PA/RF board which makes me wonder if, in fact, I would need to now flash v.2.1.26c instead? Will I BRICK my new hardware IF I flash the v.2.1.26c?

You see, I purged out Thetis and OpenHPSDR from my PC (I even uninstalled npcap and Bootloader and then re-installed both) and decided to start "clean," in hopes of getting it all to work again.

Leon,

Doug, W5WC, put in a new PA/Filter board so I would think that all relays got changed too.

73,
Juha
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby W2PA » Mon Jun 12, 2023 3:58 pm

Juha,

I've been following this saga for a while with interest. If I'm reading your experiments correctly, we can conclude that:

1) Since all is well with Protocol-1, your problem is not relays or any other hardware part malfunctioning.

2) Since the problem happens with ADC0 and disappears on ADC1, the fault is somewhere in the stream of data from ADC1 through the rest of the processing (FW & SW).

3) Doug could not reproduce the problem so something in his environment is different from yours.

So it seems to me that both Scott and Mark may be on to something as follows. If your particular rig is balancing on a kife's-edge of stability in the firmware timing, then one could imagine that tolerances to various conditions become very small. So, either a temperature variation (as Scott suggests) or a voltage variation (as Mark suggests) could trigger this behavior. There may be others. Doug's environment is closer to the sweet spot for your rig than your environment is.

Does this make sense?
Have you tried other versions of Protocol-2, and if so, is there any difference? (Apologies if you already answered this but I didn't relish re-reading the entire thread. ;) )
73,
Chris, W2PA
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby w-u-2-o » Mon Jun 12, 2023 5:29 pm

The new RF board has nothing to do with the FPGA, which is on the Orion board. Firmware will therefore not change.

Loading the wrong firmware will not brick anything, but it won't work, either. Just load the right stuff with Bootloader.

Someone else running at elevated temperatures is promising but there is still enough difference between units that yours could be effected where others are not.

Do the P1 experiment.
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby JJ4SDR » Mon Jun 12, 2023 5:57 pm

I read you Scott!

One more "foolish" question. Will the latest Thetis version (2.9.0.8 - Pre-release) care whether I run P1 or P2? I assume that doesn't matter.

Thanks. Will do the experiment.
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby JJ4SDR » Mon Jun 12, 2023 6:05 pm

Chris,

I am glad you haven't dozed off at the litany of questions and exchanges on this :lol: !

No, I haven't tried any other Protocol versions, but as Scott is suggesting, it may be time to try Protocol 1 for a look-see and it that remedies this anomaly I am fine with that :) !

Juha
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby w-u-2-o » Mon Jun 12, 2023 6:09 pm

I should also have added that it is unlikely in the extreme that you would have two faulty RF boards in a row.

This sure continues to seem like a thermally related P2 timing closure issue. If P1 works it's practically a slam dunk indication at this point.

It sucks that it seems you have more of an outlier case of hardware compared to Phil. Given the limitations Rick has been faced with for firmware development (single board to test on, no hardware characterization data from Apache, lack of incremental build in Quartus Lite, etc.) it's not unexpected.
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Re: RX1 acting up whereas RX2 is not

Postby JJ4SDR » Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:34 am

No joy. :(

Rolled back to Protocol 1 and both RX1 and RX2 exhibit the same abrupt drop of noise floor after about 5 minutes. Floor sinks and bounces back to "normal" over a period of 1-2 minutes and this keeps happening once it starts. For the first 5 minutes, all looked good but I got my hopes up too early.

I guess the next step is to roll back to the Thetis version (2.8.11) that I used when I first started using the radio almost 2 years ago. Or perhaps I first try another PC (it is an old lap-top with an Intel i5 CPU that I think has 4 cores) and see what happens. If I am still seeing the "ebb and flow," I may take Mark up on his kind offer to take the radio to his shack.

Juha
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