ADC1 Overload

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JJ4SDR
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ADC1 Overload

Post by JJ4SDR »

Using Thetis 2.0.9.6 x64 on ANAN7000 DLE MKII and all of a sudden I see - in yellow - "ADC1 Overload" and with DUP on during transmit it looks like my TX bandwidth is insanely wide on SSB. Something like 30-40kHz! :shock: Monitoring myself and hearing the audio in the "cans" and it doesn't sound too bad. Earlier today when I saw the same message come up (I was only listening) and switched to transmit (and MON on) my audio sounded really bad, a horrific buzzing kind of sound.

I have been using the above mentioned Thetis version for about a week now (still Protocol 1) without a hitch.

Any suggestions?
Juha
NI2M

UPDATE:
When I put out 5W I don't see the error message, but as soon as I crank up the power to about 30-40 watts I am seeing the TX bandwidth grow enormously wide as I described earlier in this posting. And the message pops up in RED. Same issue whether I am in the dummy or an antenna. I have never had this issue before.
PC: 8 Core i7-10700 CPU @ 2.90GHz, NVMe SK Hynix 512 GB SSD, 32GB RAM
Windows 10 Home, Version 22H2
Thetis v2.10.3.4 x64
Protocol 2 v2.2.2a
PD3LK
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by PD3LK »

Must be RF feedback into your rig via the PSU or mike or via your LAN cable.
Use good schielded cables. For your rig's LAN cable use CAT 7 or better.
r/Leon
73 PD3LK Leon
JJ4SDR
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by JJ4SDR »

Hi Leon,
I haven't changed anything and always use high quality cables. The CAT cable is higher than CAT7 and again, nothing has changed as far as I can tell. I have never had RFI in the shack except what I did hear earlier riding on top of my audio did sound like RF which I had never heard before.
Need to investigate further as I have had no issues even with 1kW out from my amp.
Juha
NI2M
PC: 8 Core i7-10700 CPU @ 2.90GHz, NVMe SK Hynix 512 GB SSD, 32GB RAM
Windows 10 Home, Version 22H2
Thetis v2.10.3.4 x64
Protocol 2 v2.2.2a
w9mdb
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by w9mdb »

I've got the same problem that I reported a while ago. I think it's due to the new version of Thetis.
Mike W9MDB
JJ4SDR
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by JJ4SDR »

I went on CW, putting out 800W on peaks and absolutely no problem at all. Got ferrites on Ethernet and DC power supply cables and on XLR mic cables as well. Perhaps it is an USB/Audio interface issue? I use VAC1 for SSB as I have a DAW (Digital audio workstation) in the circuit for some audio processing. If there were an easy way to plug my XLR mic straight into the ANAN 7000 DLE MKII might help narrow this down. Leads to PC and from PC have ferrites on too, for "insurance." The 20 meter inverted V antenna exhibits an SWR of about 1.4:1 and I use my Palstar antenna tuner (manual tuner) to get it to 1:1 although that's not what it will be at the feed-point. My LMR400 type coax is pretty good so even with the losses sustained in the coaxial run the SWR is pretty low.

Went on SSB, putting out 1kW on peaks and the audio sounds (MON on) "perfect" just like before. No sign of RF bleeding into the audio........The apparent bandwidth is now more "reasonable." Did add a few snap-on ferrites...........

I was in the dummy with about 1kW out. Same exact bandwidth when putting power into antenna. DUP ON and OFF. See images below (I had a 13s video but couldn't attach it here).
TX bandwidth with 1kW out DUP ON.jpg
TX bandwidth with 1kW out DUP ON.jpg (176.3 KiB) Viewed 12118 times
TX bandwidth with 1kW out DUP OFF.jpg
TX bandwidth with 1kW out DUP OFF.jpg (150.24 KiB) Viewed 12118 times
Last edited by JJ4SDR on Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PC: 8 Core i7-10700 CPU @ 2.90GHz, NVMe SK Hynix 512 GB SSD, 32GB RAM
Windows 10 Home, Version 22H2
Thetis v2.10.3.4 x64
Protocol 2 v2.2.2a
PD3LK
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by PD3LK »

Your setup look's solide then. Did you tried a clean Thetis database?
Also i've read a while ago about someone who solved things by using 50 Ohm terminator plugs on all unused BNC connectors.
73 PD3LK Leon
JJ4SDR
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by JJ4SDR »

Didn't try a "clean" DataBase, but for some odd reason it appears that the audio sounds really good, no sign of RF.......not sure what to make of the TX band-width the DUP on, but that bandwidth isn't what the station I communicate with would see. Will double-check that with someone who also has an ANAN tonight and see what he sees, hears and reports.

No "ADC overload" error appears, in yellow or red.
PC: 8 Core i7-10700 CPU @ 2.90GHz, NVMe SK Hynix 512 GB SSD, 32GB RAM
Windows 10 Home, Version 22H2
Thetis v2.10.3.4 x64
Protocol 2 v2.2.2a
JJ4SDR
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by JJ4SDR »

Went on 40 meter SSB and see "ADC1 Overload" pop up in yellow when I am transmitting and see that my TX bandwidth is VERY wide like it was before when I was on 20. When I monitor myself the audio sounds great with NO RFI, hum or anything of the sort mixed in......
PC: 8 Core i7-10700 CPU @ 2.90GHz, NVMe SK Hynix 512 GB SSD, 32GB RAM
Windows 10 Home, Version 22H2
Thetis v2.10.3.4 x64
Protocol 2 v2.2.2a
JJ4SDR
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by JJ4SDR »

Leon,
I see 50 ohm terminator plugs are widely available.........just need to source them from a quality company. If nothing else, perhaps they serve as additional "insurance" although I am still puzzled by why the ADC1 Overload errors started popping up only now. I used the Thetis version that came with my ANAN 7000 DLE MKII for about 9 months straight and didn't encounter this except once and there was an easy fix for it. I forget now what it was.
73 de Juha
NI2M
PC: 8 Core i7-10700 CPU @ 2.90GHz, NVMe SK Hynix 512 GB SSD, 32GB RAM
Windows 10 Home, Version 22H2
Thetis v2.10.3.4 x64
Protocol 2 v2.2.2a
JJ4SDR
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by JJ4SDR »

I wonder if anyone could chime in on whether Thetis v2.9.0.6 x64 may like Protocol 2 more than Protocol 1? Perhaps what I am experiencing suggests that I transition to Protocol 2 which may be more "naturally" compatible with this Thetis version? Yup, I know, I am probably grasping at straws here........ ;)

73 de Juha
NI2M
PC: 8 Core i7-10700 CPU @ 2.90GHz, NVMe SK Hynix 512 GB SSD, 32GB RAM
Windows 10 Home, Version 22H2
Thetis v2.10.3.4 x64
Protocol 2 v2.2.2a
w9mdb
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by w9mdb »

I've got the same ADC1 message on protocol 2.
Mike W9MDB
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w-u-2-o
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by w-u-2-o »

Short answer: enable ATT on Tx with a value sufficient to stop the overload indication. This must be set on a band-by-band basis (values are saved separately for each band). Be aware that if you use PureSignal with Auto-Attenuate enabled this value may be changed on you and for certain operational configurations without PureSignal you may need to manually adjust it.

TLDR...

There are only two possible causes of an ADC overload indication:

1. A true condition of excessively high RF power level on the ADC input.

2. A software or firmware fault.

Given the overall success of Thetis 2.9.0.6 and Protocol 1 firmware it is fair to discount that combination of software and firmware as a likely cause of the problem. This is slightly less true for Protocol 2 firmware, but in general Protocol 2 has worked very well for those with Orion and Orion MKII based hardware (200D, 7000 and 8000 units).

And, no, Thetis 2.9.0.6 does not "like" one firmware protocol more than another.

Thus we should look to the first, and far most likely cause of ADC overload conditions: excessively high RF power levels at the RX input during TX that require attenuation prior to the ADC.

Depending on the specific model ANAN hardware, paths that would allow TX signals to impinge on the RF input include:

- The internal PureSignal feedback coupler
- An external PureSignal feedback coupler
- Crosstalk/leakage (poor isolation).

In this latter category of isolation the ANAN hardware design is a famously poor performer, especially on older models. And the internal coupler, and most external couplers, will allow sufficient RF power to reach the RX input to cause ADC overload without additional attenuation prior to the ADC.

Leaving aside changes to physical configuration (bond, grounding, shielding, coupler selection, etc.), the key to fixing this problem is to enable "ATT on Tx", found in Setup > General > Ant/Filters > Antenna. This setting is saved on a band-by-band basis, so must be set separately for each band.

PureSignal (PS) linearization users are rarely plagued by this problem by happy accident. Not only have PS users invariably enabled ATT on TX, with the default PS setting of "Auto-Attenuate" enabled, once PS has found a solution on a band, an appropriate value of attenuation is saved for that band. Thus subsequent operations without PS (like digital modes) enjoy that level of RX attenuation during transmit and don't see the ADC overload indications during transmit.

However, for users who may have last utilized PS at low power levels, or who may have never used PS, the ATT on TX value may be too low for subsequent high power operations, or the feature may not be enabled.
w9mdb
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by w9mdb »

I had to put 14dB on the "ATT on Tx" setting and ADC1 overload went away.
Mike W9MDB
JJ4SDR
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by JJ4SDR »

Scott,

As always, I value your feedback on this. Note that I am not using PS at all and I will only get into that after getting an amp that has an internal RF coupler installed for use with PS.

Q1: I am just puzzled by the fact that this ADC1 overload issue came up only now, after about 1 week's worth of using Thetis v2.9.0.6 x64/P1?
Q2: Are 50 ohm plug terminators on unused BNC ports on back apron completely redundant?
Q3: Why would "A true condition of excessively high RF power level on the ADC input" rear up its ugly head only now (if that were the cause of the overload indication)? I am ordinarily putting out 1kW on SSB on several bands.
Q4: If enabling ATT on TX doesn't remedy this can I assume that "Crosstalk/leakage poor isolation" is the cause of the ADC1 overload (as I don't use PS at all right now)?
Q5: Did the TX bandwidth on the GUI with DUP enabled look "normal?" Again, I would think that whoever I am communicating with would NOT see my TX bandwidth being that wide?

I checked to see what the ATT on TX on 20 meters was (I am often there) and I see that ATT was enabled with a value of 31dB which I believe is the MAX value available? When I went of 40 m yesterday the ADC1 overload condition manifested itself immediately (I check to see what the ATT on TX was and it was set at 0 dB). Will play with the ATT number on 40.

See the "Ant/Filters" form settings below:
ANT_Filter Form on 20m.jpg
ANT_Filter Form on 20m.jpg (105.1 KiB) Viewed 11982 times
I noticed the "RX BYPASS on TX" was unchecked on 40m whereas it was checked on all other bands. After checking that box, the TX bandwidth looks much narrower. So, with that box checked, much less ATT is needed on TX as well.

I will migrate to P2 even if that won't have much impact on the overload condition.

Thanks again!
Juha
NI2M
PC: 8 Core i7-10700 CPU @ 2.90GHz, NVMe SK Hynix 512 GB SSD, 32GB RAM
Windows 10 Home, Version 22H2
Thetis v2.10.3.4 x64
Protocol 2 v2.2.2a
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w-u-2-o
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by w-u-2-o »

JJ4SDR wrote:Q1: I am just puzzled by the fact that this ADC1 overload issue came up only now, after about 1 week's worth of using Thetis v2.9.0.6 x64/P1?
I have no explanation for this other than perhaps the ATTEN on Tx or Bypass on TX settings were changed somehow during the upgrade.
Q2: Are 50 ohm plug terminators on unused BNC ports on back apron completely redundant?
IMHO they are cheap (literally quite inexpensive) insurance and I use them everywhere I have an open port on all of my equipment. Be cautious about using them on any unused ANT connectors lest you transmit into them.
Q3: Why would "A true condition of excessively high RF power level on the ADC input" rear up its ugly head only now (if that were the cause of the overload indication)? I am ordinarily putting out 1kW on SSB on several bands.
I really don't know. It could be a coincidental change in grounding/bonding/shielding/who knows, or the settings issues discussed above. Other than that I really can't say.
Q4: If enabling ATT on TX doesn't remedy this can I assume that "Crosstalk/leakage poor isolation" is the cause of the ADC1 overload (as I don't use PS at all right now)?
Negative. Unless you've got some sort of internal hardware fault in the ANAN then crosstalk involving the circuitry after the step attenuator has never proven to be a problem, even as far back as the original ANAN-10.

Historical note: on the ANAN-100 and 100D, and in the early 200Ds, the original implementation of PureSignal used the terrible internal crosstalk as the coupling mechanism for implementing feedback! There was no formal feedback coupler in the design! Not until the advent of the Rev. 24 PA/RF board was there an actual internal coupler and switched feedback path.
Q5: Did the TX bandwidth on the GUI with DUP enabled look "normal?" Again, I would think that whoever I am communicating with would NOT see my TX bandwidth being that wide?
Yes, they looked perfectly fine, both DUP on and off. Sadly, that is not "wide", that is normal for un-linearized transmitters of the quality we typically see in amateur radio. Even so, in your specific example your signal is maintaining its desired 3.3KHz bandwidth nearly -50dBc (dB below carrier level), which is really good without linearization. And this will all improve further with PureSignal, of course.

Consider also that, given average band conditions, IMD and other unwanted products are unlikely to be seen/heard at the receiving station if they are -50dBc (nearly 8 S-units down) If you are S9+10 that puts the bad stuff at S3'ish, and most noise floors are truly S3 or above (regardless of what those nasty Kenwood/Icom/Yaeus S meters say it is).

On this point specifically, anything below -70dBm on the DUP display (DUP = ON) is a "don't care", that part of the signal will never be seen/heard by anyone. I recommend everyone adjust their TX panadapter display to cut off below -70dBm.

Finally, DUP ON is, IMHO, vastly preferred because you are seeing an actual spectrum analyzer display of your transmitted signal, not a digital representation of data going into the DAC, which is what you get with DUP OFF.
I checked to see what the ATT on TX on 20 meters was (I am often there) and I see that ATT was enabled with a value of 31dB which I believe is the MAX value available?
Yes, that's max. and using that much is quite unnecessary. 15dB should usually do it.
I noticed the "RX BYPASS on TX" was unchecked on 40m whereas it was checked on all other bands. After checking that box, the TX bandwidth looks much narrower.
Remember that with DUP ON anything below the -70dBm line is a "don't care", so the signal should not look much different above that in either case.
So, with that box checked, much less ATT is needed on TX as well.
This makes very good sense. That box is not normally checked unless you are using feedback from an external coupler for PureSignal.

With the box unchecked during TX, RX1 is receiving the signal from the internal coupler during TX, and that signal level can get quite high, at 100W requiring some 15dB, give or take, to keep the ADC from overloading.

With the box checked and nothing on the Bypass input then RX1 signal levels will be only those caused by external leakage or internal crosstalk. Putting a 50 Ohm terminator on the Bypass port will further attenuate any external signals.

That said, I do not recommend trying to minimize things in this way. As previously discussed, you want to monitor an accurate representation of your transmitted signal on the spectrum analyzer that we call a "panadapter". To do this select DUP ON, select the appropriate Bypass on TX mode (ON for external coupler, OFF for internal coupler) and set the ATTEN on TX setting as required.
I will migrate to P2 even if that won't have much impact on the overload condition.
It should have absolutely no bearing on the issue. However, fair warning: in very rare instances P2 firmware does not work well on a particular serial number bit of hardware. It's unlikely that will be the case. I just don't want you to think there are any absolute guarantees.
JJ4SDR
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by JJ4SDR »

Scott,

All points well made and taken!

I haven't checked the S/N of my ANAN 7000 DLE MKII, but I received it August 2021.

Best!

Juha
NI2M
PC: 8 Core i7-10700 CPU @ 2.90GHz, NVMe SK Hynix 512 GB SSD, 32GB RAM
Windows 10 Home, Version 22H2
Thetis v2.10.3.4 x64
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by w-u-2-o »

You don't have to check anything. What I meant was there are a few 7000's out there, say 1 out of every 1000, that just don't play well with P2. Don't worry about it until you have to worry about it ;)
JJ4SDR
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by JJ4SDR »

:lol:
PC: 8 Core i7-10700 CPU @ 2.90GHz, NVMe SK Hynix 512 GB SSD, 32GB RAM
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JJ4SDR
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by JJ4SDR »

Scott,

In regards to using 50 ohm terminators on BNC ports on back, I am thinking on using them on "RX BYPASS" and "XVTR IN" on my ANAN 7000 DLE MKII. Or, should I place one on "RX BYPASS" only?

Cheers,
Juha
NI2M
PC: 8 Core i7-10700 CPU @ 2.90GHz, NVMe SK Hynix 512 GB SSD, 32GB RAM
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w-u-2-o
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by w-u-2-o »

I terminate all unused connectors on all my radios, without exception.
Ron Stockton
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by Ron Stockton »

I concur with Scott. I terminated all unused BNC ports on my 7000DLE MKII and it immediately solved all ADC1 overload issues.

Regards,
Ron N0RR
JJ4SDR
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by JJ4SDR »

Scott,

I guess I misunderstood your comments from earlier where you wrote:
"IMHO they are cheap (literally quite inexpensive) insurance and I use them everywhere I have an open port on all of my equipment. Be cautious about using them on any unused ANT connectors lest you transmit into them."

Juha
PC: 8 Core i7-10700 CPU @ 2.90GHz, NVMe SK Hynix 512 GB SSD, 32GB RAM
Windows 10 Home, Version 22H2
Thetis v2.10.3.4 x64
Protocol 2 v2.2.2a
NC3Z
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by NC3Z »

w-u-2-o wrote: IMHO they are cheap (literally quite inexpensive) insurance and I use them everywhere I have an open port on all of my equipment.
This has been discussed in the past and ever since then I run terminators on all unused ports.
Gary NC3Z
JJ4SDR
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Re: ADC1 Overload

Post by JJ4SDR »

Roger. I am still a newbie and hadn't seen the discussion.
PC: 8 Core i7-10700 CPU @ 2.90GHz, NVMe SK Hynix 512 GB SSD, 32GB RAM
Windows 10 Home, Version 22H2
Thetis v2.10.3.4 x64
Protocol 2 v2.2.2a
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